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Author Topic: Opening Darwin's black box
Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 03. September 2003 01:58      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Opening Darwin’s black box: teaching evolution through developmental genetics

By Scott F Gilbert Nature Genetics, volume 4 september 2003

An excellent article about the role of evolutionary development in evolution.

Gilbert also provides a link to some interesting supplemental material

quote:

I would emphasize the importance of including examples from the developmental genetics approach when discussing evolution in public. In addition to being easier to understand than the population genetic approach to teaching evolution, the developmental approach might have other advantages. First, the developmental genetic approach uses examples that everyone can understand from visual experience. Second, evolution at the level of developmental regulatory genes might be the main source of variation. In humans that animal for which variations have been catalogued most carefully), genes are heterozygous at more functional cis-regulatory sites (gt 16,000) than at exon sites ( lt 13,000). Ordinary small-scale mutations contribute to large variations in transcription rates across the genome and so to human variation57. Third, these examples address the questions of evolutionary novelty that creationists say cannot be explained by evolution — how insects have fewer legs than centipedes, how snakes lost their legs, how birds got feathers and ducks got their webbed feet.We are therefore able to show where creationists are wrong and how their ideas about homology and morphological novelties are out of date. If the processes of evolution were viewed solely from the population genetic perspective, it would appear very difficult to explain the origins of feathers, teeth and eyes. They seem to be (in the words of the creationists) "irreducibly complex"6. However,when the perspectives of embryonic induction and developmental genetics are added, these novelties become explainable, at least in outline, if not yet in detail. Such information is crucial if we are to counter the distortions of science by creationists58.



[ 03. September 2003, 02:00: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Jack Foster
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Icon 1 posted 03. September 2003 23:55      Profile for Jack Foster   Email Jack Foster   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's interesting that Gilbert's main goal is fighting Creationists as opposed to enlightenment. The consequence is that his analysis comes off as dogmatic . . . even naive.

I prefer to read people who struggle to understand this stuff -- not people who claim complete understanding where there clearly cannot be.

[ 03. September 2003, 23:55: Message edited by: Jack Foster ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 05. September 2003 00:25      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jack,

Did you read Gilbert? What makes you conclude that his main goal is fighting creationists as opposed to enlightenment. There seem to be at least problems with this 1) Gilbert's focus does not seem to be mainly fighting creationists 2) fighting creationists and enlightenment are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Gilbert can be heard/seen online at the metalibrary

Interesting talk, fascinating how Gilbert brings together the relevant parts. He also authors an excellent website

Some of Scott's writings

quote:

So I am especially appreciative of speaking here today about the role that developmental biology can play in education, especially educating our undergraduates and high school students about evolution. I will contend that we can teach evolution more effectively using developmental genetics than population genetics. Both are required for any theory of evolution, but I propose that students will learn the principles of evolution better from examples of animal development than they can from the mathematics of natural and laboratory populations. The examples I will use are perhaps not the ones others would use. I will be using examples that my undergraduates would appreciate--which means I will mainly be talking about vertebrates and insects. My apologies in advance to the allies of all other clades.

TEACHING EVOLUTION THROUGH DEVELOPMENT
Talk delivered at the 61st Annual Meeting of the Society for Developmental Biology, Madison, Wisconsin, July 21,
2001

From the paper "Opening Darwin's black Box"

quote:

When biologists are asked to discuss the evidence for evolution at public forums, they usually use well-established microevolutionary examples. Although these examples show the efficacy of evolution within species, they often leave audiences susceptable to the arguments of creationists who deny that evolution can create new structures and species. Recent studies from evolutionary developmental biology are beginning to provide case studies that specifically address
these concerns. This perspective presents some of this new evidence and provides a framework in which to explain homology and phylogeny to such audiences.

Gilbert presents some compelling arguments addressing these claims in this opinion article.

[ 05. September 2003, 00:34: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Jack Foster
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Icon 1 posted 05. September 2003 02:38      Profile for Jack Foster   Email Jack Foster   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm talking about the pdf file that you linked. Mesk just posted a portion of the paper itself over at ARN which I enjoyed.
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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 05. September 2003 12:09      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jack, yes the pdf was supplement to the paper which addresses some creationist claims.

quote:

These footnotes deal specifically with Creationism and how evolutionary developmental biology can confront its claims.

Number 5 was of special interest to me. I had no idea about maternal control of early embryonic development. Then again I never studied embryology either. :-)

[ 05. September 2003, 12:17: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Nel
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Icon 1 posted 08. September 2003 21:01      Profile for Nel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Havn't been feeling well the last couple of days. But I just wanted to cross post this, and follow up when you can't fry an egg on my forehead anymore.

Basically the issue addressed above seems to be the center of a big debate in evolution circles.

quote:

Despite increasing recognition that genetic networks have been “rewired” over the course of evolution (Szathmary 2001; Wray 2001), that “key” genes can often be knocked out of complex organisms with little or no phenotypic consequence (Shastry 1995), and that the same genetic manipulation may give rise to animals exhibiting profoundly different phenotypes when present on diverse genetic backgrounds (Sigmund 2000)...In the absence of a theory for origination of morphological traits other than mutation-based incremental trial-and-error, there is no alternative but to reject the idea of rapid, large scale organizational innovations, and search for functional significance in every molecular detail. This is the “reverse engineering” approach that dominates contemporary developmental biology. But if, as seems likely, organisms were originally Proteus-like, subject to molding by externally-conditioned, self organizing, epigenetic processes, subsequent molecular evolution would have had primarily restricting, consolidating, and reinforcing roles. Deconstructing modern development would thus require testing hypotheses about originating processes and evolutionary trajectories and not confine itself solely to contemporaneous functional analysis.

source

Now, I'm not sure if my thinking is clear here, but what I find interesting about Ubx is that it was co-opted in derived forms. Ancient insects don't even have wings. Timema, for example, is the most primitive living stick insect lineage and it is wingless. Data from Whiting suggests to me that wings appeared in 6 lineages convergently.

Also, that the same hox gene can intervene in many different patterning processes (in shrimps for example). Different organisms seem to have co-opted genes for purposes specific to it's clade. Conway Morris expresses it like this:

quote:

Because a gene operates to facilitate an outgrowth that becomes a limb in several different taxa of animals thus does not mean that legs evolved only once, much less that all legs are homologous. Rather it indicates that genes and gene cascades/networks have been recruited convergently as organizers of limb devleopment.

Origination of Organismal Forms.

This may all be relevant to Mike's idea of frontloading.

[ 08. September 2003, 21:09: Message edited by: Nelson-Alonso ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 09. September 2003 00:58      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nelson: insect lineage and it is wingless. Data from Whiting suggests to me that wings appeared in 6 lineages convergently.

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion. Could you give some details? As I understand Whiting suggests stick insects evolved from cockroaches who have wings.

"It appears that the genetic instructions to make wings has been preserved from the group's collective cockroach ancestry. "

Some insects lost their wings, only to regain them at a later moment. Fascinating how hox genes can re-express themselves.

I am not sure how this relates to front loading though. I would hope Nelson could expand on this in some detail. Was front loading supposed to remove the wings on certain walking stick insects or have them re-evolve?

More

quote:

Whiting and his team made the discovery while preparing a family tree of walking stick insects. They suspect that like other insects walking sticks lost their wings and ability to fly so they could better adapt to their environment.
A lack of wings in walking sticks probably increased their ability to blend into their surroundings to protect themselves from predators.

"At least 50 million years later, for some reasons, it was to their advantage to have some of the species become winged again," he added. Scientists had believed that once a trait was lost it was gone forever because the genes needed to create it would be changed.

Whiting said the genetic instructions to produce wings and legs are probably related and can probably be switched on and off over millions of years. He suspects re-evolution may have occurred in other species including cockroaches and different insects and possibly other animals.

Source

You yourself quote on ARN the following

quote:

Researchers assumed wings could not come back once lost as the genes needed to create them would mutate beyond repair once the wings disappeared. But Whiting says there is evidence from the fruit fly Drosophila that the same genes contain instructions for forming wings and legs.
If the same were true for stick insects, there would be an evolutionary pressure to stop wing genes from mutating, even in the insects that did not have wings. Those genes could then be turned back on in the future.

Fascinating topic. Whether it be wings or eyes hox genes seem to play significant roles.
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Nel
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Icon 1 posted 09. September 2003 17:35      Profile for Nel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pim writes:

quote:

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion. Could you give some details? As I understand Whiting suggests stick insects evolved from cockroaches who have wings.

Whiting also states that what I say above concerning the most primitive insects not having wings poses a problem for this hypothesis:

quote:

Stick insects come in two flavors -- winged and wingless. The study reports that the earliest stick insects had no wings. Whiting said this posed a problem because stick insects descended from cockroaches, which have wings. Because of this, primitive stick insects should have had wings, the researchers theorized.

source

Pim writes:

quote:

Some insects lost their wings, only to regain them at a later moment. Fascinating how hox genes can re-express themselves.

Thats one interpretation of the data. However, as the article states, and as I state above:

quote:

but what I find interesting about Ubx is that it was co-opted in derived forms. Ancient insects don't even have wings. Timema, for example, is the most primitive living stick insect lineage and it is wingless. Data from Whiting suggests to me that wings appeared in 6 lineages convergently.

Another interpretation is that every time there is a lineage with wings, that the wings were lost on independent occasions, but that scenario becomes unlikey when you take into account the topology of the entire tree. So what the data supports at the moment is that the wings were derived convergently.

and I also quote Conway Morris:

quote:

Because a gene operates to facilitate an outgrowth that becomes a limb in several different taxa of animals thus does not mean that legs evolved only once, much less that all legs are homologous. Rather it indicates that genes and gene cascades/networks have been recruited convergently as organizers of limb devleopment.

Origination of Organismal Forms.

Pim writes:

quote:

I am not sure how this relates to front loading though. I would hope Nelson could expand on this in some detail. Was front loading supposed to remove the wings on certain walking stick insects or have them re-evolve?

The latter. Some examples from Michael Denton's book seem relevant. For example with some marsupial and placental mammals, the tape of evolution seems to have been re-run, many placental mammals have marsupial counter-parts, and that both groups have done so independantly. Also, no fossil of our species has been found more than about 160,000 years old, and the estimate of our speciation is less than 200,000 years from a very small population size. Since then it seems as though both hominids and humans evolved independantly the ability of tool-making/technological innovation, burying the dead, wearing clothes, maybe even religious belief. As it may be with the situation with legs, could this type of intelligence have evolved via frontloading?

[ 09. September 2003, 17:49: Message edited by: Nelson-Alonso ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 09. September 2003 23:42      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Nelson,

The article may have misled you, the phasmid evolved from an ancestral form which does have wings. What happened is that the ancestor of the Phasmids did not have wings and that some gained wings. SInce you are quoting from newspapers, I presume you do not have access to the original paper which would have resolve much of this easily.

Now bear with me, I am not an expert in these things but I will see if I can give some of the relevant background info.

quote:

These results support the hypothesis that the ancestral condition in Phasmatodea is wingless, that the first six basal phasmid lineages are entirely wingless, and that fully developed wings were derived later in phasmid evolution, on as many as four occasions.

and

quote:

The detailed homology in wing features shared
among phasmids and other insects suggests that wings did not reevolve de novo in phasmids, but are rather a re-expression of the basic insect wing which was lost in ancestral stick insects.

So in short, ancestral stick insects lost the ability to form wings but rather than evolving de-novo, the genes responsible for wings were re-expressed in some later descendants.

How did this happen

quote:

Therefore it is not surprising that the basic genetic instructions for wing formation are conserved in wingless insects, because similar instructions are required to form legs, and probably other critical structures16.

Hope this helps
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Nel
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Icon 1 posted 09. September 2003 23:58      Profile for Nel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pim writes:

quote:

The article may have misled you, the phasmid evolved from an ancestral form which does have wings. What happened is that the ancestor of the Phasmids did not have wings and that some gained wings. SInce you are quoting from newspapers, I presume you do not have access to the original paper which would have resolve much of this easily.

You are again referring to cockroaches. How does this show that the article mislead me? We already discussed this. I never said that cockroarches never had wings. Just the most primitive insects, which the paper mentions. However, Whiting himself suggests that the same occurred in cockroaches:

quote:

Whiting said he expects to find more examples of re-evolution in other insect groups, such as cockroaches.

Pim writes:

quote:

So in short, ancestral stick insects lost the ability to form wings but rather than evolving de-novo, the genes responsible for wings were re-expressed in some later descendants.

Again, this is one interpretation and the "newspaper" mentions this possibility (which I already discussed). Another interpration is that it was lost in several lineages which is also mentioned by the "newspaper".
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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 10. September 2003 00:16      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Nelson,

Your comments suggested to me that you thought that the article stated that the walking stick insects ancestor was flightless. In fact the ancestor of the walking stick is the cock roach if I remember correctly which had wings.
Thus the ancestor of all these insects did have wings and many insects lost the wings but some re-evolved them.

It may be interesting to see how this plays out with cockroaches, more evidence for the exciting finding that certain features can be turned off but the genetic apparatus mostly was conserved since it played a dual role.

Nelson: "Another interpration is that it was lost in several lineages which is also mentioned by the "newspaper".

The alternative explanation is far less exciting from an evolutionary standpoint.

quote:
"An alternative explanation for their data is that the loss of wings is much more likely than the gain of wings and many different lineages lost their wings independently," Norton said.

Have you seen the cladistic analysis they did? Figures 2 and 3 may be helpful to you.

 -

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Nel
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Icon 1 posted 10. September 2003 00:19      Profile for Nel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pim writes:

quote:

Your comments suggested to me that you thought that the article stated that the walking stick insects ancestor was flightless.

You are clearly mistaken. Here is what I wrote:

quote:

Ancient insects don't even have wings. Timema, for example, is the most primitive living stick insect lineage and it is wingless. Data from Whiting suggests to me that wings appeared in 6 lineages convergently.

The picture you link to simply agrees with what I have been saying. I'm not sure why you linked to it.

[ 10. September 2003, 00:26: Message edited by: Nelson-Alonso ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 10. September 2003 00:28      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With respect to his claim about 'front loading' Nelson suggests

quote:

The latter. Some examples from Michael Denton's book seem relevant. For example with some marsupial and placental mammals, the tape of evolution seems to have been re-run, many placental mammals have marsupial counter-parts, and that both groups have done so independantly.

And yet all this 'front loading' may be explained by hox genes for instance. But front loading is not a very reliable mechanism for teleology and hox genes merely form a boundary condition to the problem. Without more evidence about the origins of hox genes, the idea of front loading seems somewhat ad hoc but I am open to suggestions how to explore these issues. We have to realize that evolution has to work within many restrictions and limitations. How we may resolve how this points to front loading especially where front loading is seen as a teleological principle seems somewhat unclear to me.

With our increasing understanding of evolutionary mechanisms we may even be able to understand the many similarities AND differences between marsupials and placental mammals.

quote:

The entire nucleotide sequence of the mitochondrial genome of the American opossum, Didelphis virginiana, was determined. Two major features distinguish this genome from those of other mammals. First, five tRNA genes around the origin of light strand replication are rearranged. Second, the anticodon of tRNA(Asp) is posttranscriptionally changed by an RNA editing process such that its coding capacity is altered. When the complete protein-coding region of the mitochondrial genome is used as an outgroup for placental mammals it can be shown that rodents represent an earlier branch among placental mammals than primates and artiodactyls and that artiodactyls share a common ancestor with carnivores. The overall rates of evolution of most of the mitochondrial genome of placentals are clock-like. Furthermore, the data indicate that the lineages leading to the mouse and rat may have diverged from each other as much as 35 million years ago.

Genetics. 1994 May;137(1):243-56.
The marsupial mitochondrial genome and the evolution of placental mammals. Janke A, Feldmaier-Fuchs G, Thomas WK, von Haeseler A, Paabo S.

quote:

Also, no fossil of our species has been found more than about 160,000 years old, and the estimate of our speciation is less than 200,000 years from a very small population size. Since then it seems as though both hominids and humans evolved independantly the ability of tool-making/technological innovation, burying the dead, wearing clothes, maybe even religious belief. As it may be with the situation with legs, could this type of intelligence have evolved via frontloading?

Wow tool making, burying the dead, wearing clothes are inheritable traits? Could it have happened with front loading? Without any substantial explanation of front loading it seems to be hard to see how such an idea may be explored in a scientifically fruitful manner but I am surely eager to see you develop one.

I find the concept of front loading a somewhat vague concept to describe what we do not know and thus treat as initial or boundary conditions.

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 10. September 2003 00:29      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nelson: The picture you link to simply agrees with what I have been saying. I'm not sure why you linked to it.

So winged insects lost their wings and in some lineages it re-appeared most likely through the same regulatory complexes.

What do you think these data show?

And which six lineages?

[ 10. September 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Nel
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Icon 1 posted 10. September 2003 00:42      Profile for Nel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pim writes:

quote:

And yet all this 'front loading' may be explained by hox genes for instance.

Partly as I see it. As I stated in my previous post:

quote:

Also, that the same hox gene can intervene in many different patterning processes (in shrimps for example). Different organisms seem to have co-opted genes for purposes specific to it's clade.

This paper that Pim cites:

"Genetics. 1994 May;137(1):243-56.
The marsupial mitochondrial genome and the evolution of placental mammals. Janke A, Feldmaier-Fuchs G, Thomas WK, von Haeseler A, Paabo S."

is irrelevant to Denton's discussion of placental/marsupial counterparts. Placental mammals and marsupials did diverge, however, they became isolated from eachother. However, we still see amazing similarity between marsupial and placental wolf skulls, for example.

Pim writes:

quote:

Without any substantial explanation of front loading it seems to be hard to see how such an idea may be explored in a scientifically fruitful manner but I am surely eager to see you develop one.

I'm probably not the one to develop it, but I am just as eager.

Pim writes:

quote:

I find the concept of front loading a somewhat vague concept to describe what we do not know and thus treat as initial or boundary conditions.

I don't see it as vague at all.

[ 10. September 2003, 00:56: Message edited by: Nelson-Alonso ]

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