“Every process, event, happening -call it what you will; in a word, everything that is going on in Nature means an increase of the entropy of the part of the world where it is going on. Thus a living organism continually increases its entropy -or, as you may say, produces positive entropy -and thus tends to approach the dangerous state of maximum entropy, which is of death. It can only keep aloof from it, i.e. alive, by continually drawing from its environment negative entropy -which is something very positive as we shall immediately see. What an organism feeds upon is negative entropy. Or, to put it less paradoxically, the essential thing in metabolism is that the organism succeeds in freeing itself from all the entropy it cannot help producing while alive.”

Thus the device by which an organism maintains itself stationary at a fairly high level of he orderliness ( = fairly low level of entropy) really consists continually sucking orderliness from its environment.

But how does an organism "suck orderliness" from its environment?”

ME: Erwin Schrodinger is much misunderstood in his use of the term “negative entropy.” or neguentropy. He was simply trying to use a term that the general public would understand. Instead, I believe he unknowingly, really muddied the water.

The quote you are stating comes from chapter six of the paper, What is Life?

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:4S8J9netQgwC:home.att.net/~p.caimi/Life.doc

But please see how he clarifies the term “negative entropy” in his notes on chapter six: “The remarks on negative entropy have met with doubt and opposition from physicist colleagues. Let me say first, that if I had been law catering for them alone I should have let the discussion turn on free energy instead. It is the more familiar notion in this context. But this highly technical term seemed linguistically too near to energy for making the average reader alive to the contrast between the two things.”

So what he really was referring to was not entropy, but Gibb’s Free Energy within the cell.

“It seems that energy is required; I've often heard the objection to evolutionary theory that it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, along with the standard response that entropy can decrease as long as energy is input into the system.”

ME: This is true in some cases. For example, the photosynthetic process in plants is a good case in point. Yet, this is not always the situation. When a pond freezes, the crystalline structure of ice is more organized and thermodynamic entropy is lower than in a liquid state. But when energy is added to it the next afternoon in the form of the sun shining on it, it thaws and entropy is actually increased by the addition of energy.

The latter example is the manner in which food acts in the human body. Anytime heat is introduced into a system, thermodynamic entropy increases. In order that the cell can directly use the energy in food, it must be broken down into ATP via this reaction in Kreb’s cycle: glucose+oxygen+ADP+phosphate to CO2+Water+ATP. But this is an exothermic reaction that releases 7.3 kcal/mole of ATP produced into the cell. So we can see that food actually INCREASES entropy in the cell in the long run.

“Somehow, the flow of energy must be properly channeled or constrained to achieve the reduction of entropy. In biosystems, these constraints or channels through which energy flows are embodied in enzymes that guide and direct energy flows.”

ME: There is no reduction of entropy in the human organism. We do help to keep our entropy in check by releasing some in the form of waste heat into the environment. But thermodynamic entropy begins to build in the organism from conception forward until it eventually kills us. Schrodinger wasn’t quite sure how this happened, he just felt that it did. Today, as the studies are coming in, we know that free radicals are aging us and killing us. In the above formula, often the oxygen is thrown out as a free radical. These free radicals last only nano seconds, and will attack whatever is nearby to either steal an electron, or donate one in seeking equilibrium. This is not healthy and can damage tissue including killing a cell outright.

ME: Logical entropy, which is similar to thermodynamic entropy but without the heat, is also at work within the cell. This is similar to the sun burning out, or your car running out of gas. This is logical entropy in the form of Full>Empty. On the end of the chromosomes are structures called telomeres. The telomeres grow shorter and shorter with each cell division, until they are so short that after about 50 divisions, the cell can no longer divide.

“And those enzymes, in turn, come from DNA. Now, it's interesting that DNA contains vast amounts of information, and information has its own form of entropy. Furthermore, it appears that informational (negative) entropy is being used to produce enzymes that further channel the flow of energy to maintain low-entropy conditions within the cell. Intriguingly, this suggests that perhaps we can speak of entropy flows much as we speak of energy and information flows.”

ME: I certainly see your point. I see informational entropy as increasing in the genome over time via the accumulation of harmful mutations. The Eyre-Walker (of Sussex University), Kneightley and Crow studies on this this have shed much light on this increase in informational entropy. It seems we are carrying around 1000 harmful mutations in the genome today, and that they are increasing at a minimum rate of 1.6 harmful mutations per generation. This is the addition of Shannon-Weaver “noise” into what was once healthy information.

“What of thermodynamic entropy and informational entropy? They both have the same mathematical form and it makes intuitive sense that they would be, in some way, able to influence each other.
Thermodynamic entropy:
S = k ln W
or
S = -k ln P
where
k = Boltzmann's constant
W = equiprobable, equal-energy microstates (ways the system can be arranged) for a given macrostate, and
P = the probability of any given microstate.”

ME: Yes. With Boltzmann’s constant we always come out in Joules/degree Kelvin. Heat--thermodynamic entropy.

“Informational entropy:
H = -K log2 P
where
P = the probability of the signal given the reference class of possible signals that could have been sent.
K = a constant, usually assumed to be unity.
Alternately, we can represent informational entropy as
H = K log2 N
where
N = number of possibilities from which the signal in question was selected.

ME: Yes. A good formula for use in thermodynamic, logical and informational entropy I just ran across is S = -k*sum(overj){Pj*log(Pj)}, where "Pj" is the probability, "P", of finding the system in state "j", the sum is over all possible states "j", and "k" is an arbitrary constant to define units (Boltzmann's constant in thermodynamics). That definition of entropy is also used in information theory (with no "k"),

“I would like to hear from physicists on these ideas, especially on whether I've correctly understood and described thermodynamic entropy.”

ME: I’m not a physicist, but I believe you have described thermodynamic entropy quite well. Thermo = heat, dynamic = movement or power. Thus thermodynamic entropy always deals with heat in a system or heat exchange between systems/sub-systems. Logical entropy is simply organization/disorganization. The main difference between logical and informational entropy is that logical always deals with matter, and informational need not.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Jep ]

Present in the physical laws of our universe is an effective law of decay called the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Energy and energy exchange is the driving force of our universe. And order to disorder is the governing principle of this energy as it interacts within the universe. Fires burn out, they never become bigger over the course of time as they deplete their energy. Batteries exhaust their energy supply, they don’t recharge themselves through usage. Air escapes from a tire when it is punctured, it never concentrates itself into the tire on its own. The gas tank of your car cannot fill itself as you drive. You will always run out of gas if you do not manually refill the tank. Organisms age and die. Appliances wear out and break down.

Throughout nature we see this collective directive in effect that governs our universe in the process of new to old, order to disorder with almost every energy exchange.

Isaac Asimov described this law rather succinctly: “Another way of stating the second law then is: ‘The universe is constantly getting more disorderly!’ Viewed that way, we can see the second law all about us. We have to work hard to straighten a room, but left to itself it becomes a mess again very quickly and very easily. Even if we never enter it, it becomes dusty and musty. How difficult to maintain houses, and machinery, and our bodies in perfect working order: how easy to let them deteriorate. In fact, all we have to do is nothing, and everything deteriorates, collapses, breaks down, wears out, all by itself—and that is what the second law is all about.” (1)

The Second Law may be defined accordingly: With any spontaneous (a spontaneous process is one that requires no energy to occur) reaction or event, entropy will tend to increase.

Entropy is a measurement of the disorder caused by the Second Law.

There are three entropies that affect the human organism. Thermodynamic entropy always deals with heat, and rises in the organism slowly but steadily, until it eventually kills the organism. (2)

Logical entropy has nothing to do with heat and is just order/disorder. Logical entropy actually decreases as the organism matures through the growth cycle, because the organism orders and grows. It then begins to increase dramatically as the organism ages, dies and decomposes. (3)

Finally, informational entropy affects the human genome over time insuring that this information will always degrade rather than order. (4)(5)(6) Genes are code--genetic information. For the process of complex macroevolution to have happened, the human genome would have had to grow extremely complex, both quantitatively and qualitatively, over a period of millions of years. The genome would have had to increase the phenotype of a unicelled organism with under 500 genes into what we see today, a complex organism called Homo Sapien with between 33,000 and 75,000 genes.

CONCLUSION: All three entropies actually increase within the human organism over time and through successive generations. The Second Law states that with any spontaneous reaction or event, entropy tends to increase. Yet, complex macroevolution maintains that through spontaneous mutation, and via millions of speciations over the course of a billion years or so, entropy gradually decreased. Both cannot be correct!

When our scientists look at the human genome today, they see stark degradation, not movement of the genome toward complexity, but a direction to simplicity. It is scientifically impossible for complex macroevolution to have occurred. It would have violated perhaps the most well tested and most universal law of science: the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Sir Author Eddington, a contributor to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, puts it well: "If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations - then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation - well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." (7)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have just a few comments. First, I think that Erwin Schrodinger was on to something. It seems to me that negative entropy cannot be equivalent to free energy, because as I pointed out before, free energy is not enough to lower the entropy of a system. The free energy contained in six moles of glucose molecules can be released by burning in an atmosphere of pure oxygen, or by the controlled release in the cells of my body. In the first case, entropy goes up drastically. In the second case, the free energy can be put to work to counteract the entropy of thermodynamic breakdown. For instance, the energy might be used in the DNA repair process. Or it might be used to build new organic molecules to replace old, worn out ones. But what I have noticed is that only free energy that is properly channeled can counteract thermodynamic breakdown (entropy increase). This channeling comes from information stored in the DNA, and that information itself is a highly ordered, low-entropy system containing low informational entropy. It seems that low entropy is needed to create and maintain systems exhibiting low entropy. Thus I postulated a conservation and flow of entropy, from information to thermodynamic systems.

It is clear to me that cells are constantly engaged in reducing entropy. Consider an example; think of a carbon dioxide molecule floating around in the atmosphere. Imagine that some plant takes in that molecule through its stoma and fixes that carbon dioxide into a glucose molecule via the process of photosynthesis. The entropy of that carbon dioxide molecule is vastly decreased. Before, it had a nearly infinite number of different positions it could occupy in the space of the atmosphere. Now, it's fixed between two other carbon molecules and is specifically tied to hydroxyl and hydrogen groups. The number of possibilities for this carbon molecule has been greatly reduced; its entropy has decreased. The flow of energy through the cell, as noted above, is utilized to maintain low entropy conditions within the cell.

Sure, the overall entropy of the system increases--that's what the 2nd law states. But it's clear that a cell can locally reduce entropy by utilizing free energy. But only some systems have the ability to correctly utilize that free energy to reduce local entropy, and it turns out that these systems utilize pre-existing, low-entropy "energy guides." Those energy guides come from low-entropy (thermodynamic and informational) DNA. Thus, the low entropy is not free with the input of energy. Rather, it must be purchased with preexisting low entropy, combined with the input of free energy.

The idea that intrigues and excites me is the concept of low-entropy conditions flowing from information into thermodynamic systems. The order of information becomes the order of the physical world. All the order of a biological cell originated with inorganic, disordered molecules that were assimilated and incorporated into biotic order. Somehow this suggests to me an interface between physical and non-physical reality that may help illuminate the means by which mind operates upon matter, the way in which an intelligent agent can leave permanent markers of its presence.

Now, do I agree that energy can be used to counteract the damage done by entropy? You bet. In this sense we can certainly see it as a negative of entropy. I must admit that the proper channeling of free energy to repair genomic damage is new to me.

“Thus I postulated a conservation and flow of entropy, from information to thermodynamic systems.”

ME: I find this very interesting. I have long posited that thermodynamic entropy is shuffled between systems, and have worked on a system/sub system methodology to better show the disorganization of 2lot long before we get to the level of the universe. But I have never pondered a flow from information to thermodynamic entropy unless you are tying in Boltzmann’s formula where the K is strictly energy/temperature and the W is information. Boltzmann certainly posited that W was information.

“It is clear to me that cells are constantly engaged in reducing entropy. Consider an example; think of a carbon dioxide molecule floating around in the atmosphere. Imagine that some plant takes in that molecule through its stoma and fixes that carbon dioxide into a glucose molecule via the process of photosynthesis. The entropy of that carbon dioxide molecule is vastly decreased. Before, it had a nearly infinite number of different positions it could occupy in the space of the atmosphere. Now, it's fixed between two other carbon molecules and is specifically tied to hydroxyl and hydrogen groups. The number of possibilities for this carbon molecule has been greatly reduced; its entropy has decreased. The flow of energy through the cell, as noted above, is utilized to maintain low entropy conditions within the cell.”

ME: Here you are certainly tying in information due to an extreme reduction of microstates of a molecule as it is incorporated into an endergonic reaction that lowers heat as well. Thus I see what page you’re on. I would just point out to the lurkers that this doesn‘t necessarily occur in this fashion in animal tissue, because I couldn’t see 02 as being in any different microstates than is the C02 in the product. You can correct me if you think differently.

Cellular metabolism results in a phenomenon called coupled reactions in the cell. In animal tissue, a reaction that causes ATP emits 7.3 kcal of heat per mole of ATP produced. The coupled reaction where a phosphate leg is removed from ATP to once again form ADP is an endothermic reaction that absorbs -7.3 kcal and one might think that entropy is just canceled out. But this is not true.

Carnot showed in 1824 that NOTHING is 100% efficient in heat exchanges in an open system. Therefore all of the heat produced by the exothermic reaction will not be available for the endothermic one. Some entropy will always be produced in every reaction.

I have been into the work of Dr. Denham Harman, MD, PhD, a Professor Emeritus of Medicine and Biochemistry at the University of Nebraska. Some in his field claim that someday he will go down in the history books as the “Father of Free Radical Medicine.”

The old guy (He’s 80 something and still kicking, I think) posited 40 years ago that aging and ultimate death are a result of the very reactions we are discussing raising entropy within the mitochondria of the cell where Krebs cycle is accomplished. If this were true, we would expect the mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA to be the first organelle damaged by this entropy in the aging process and this is exactly what we are seeing.

“The idea that intrigues and excites me is the concept of low-entropy conditions flowing from information into thermodynamic systems. The order of information becomes the order of the physical world. All the order of a biological cell originated with inorganic, disordered molecules that were assimilated and incorporated into biotic order. Somehow this suggests to me an interface between physical and non-physical reality that may help illuminate the means by which mind operates upon matter, the way in which an intelligent agent can leave permanent markers of its presence.”