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Author
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Topic: Classification of ID tools and theorization about new tools
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kyle7
Member
Member # 191
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posted 11. April 2002 02:40
It seems to me that some have concern over whether ID validates or invalidates evolution. SC and IC biological systms, if shown to be true, do not necessarily falsify evolution. SC and IC arguments are used to show that there is an Intelligent Designer. ID theorists are not really concerned about the designer, but to help clarify this issue I will discuss different views about the designer in relation to evolution:
- 1) First, there are those who are theists who believe that a god or gods allowed the improbable processes to occur allowing evolution to happen.
- 2) Others believe that aliens from distant galaxies were involved allowing the evolutionary process.
- 3) There are also theists who believe that a god or gods created functional life forms.
- 4) There are others who believe that aliens from distant galaxies created functional life forms and seeded our planet.
- 5) Also, there are theists/deists who believe that a god or gods constructed the universe with governing laws forcing the development of life through evolution. They would argue that the laws that allow a "spike" in complexity point to an Intelligent Designer. They would use the SC and IC arguments to show that only very-specified complex systems are allowed to evolve (e.g. biological systems).
- 6) Finally, there are those who may hold to any combination of the above five positions.
I was about to post this on the "Engineering & Darwinian Theory" thread, but I think it warrants a thread of its own. Did I leave out any points of view in the six positions - relating to evolution. Should any of the points of view be left off the list? Would you change the terms or wording used? Notice that those who hold to positions #3 and #4 may believe that SC and IC biological systems falsify evolution.
[ 18 April 2002, 19:48: Message edited by: kyle7 ]
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Moderator
Administrator
Member # 1
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posted 11. April 2002 09:49
This thread is being watched closely. First of all, I (the ISCID soothsayer) foresee people rehashing old arguments about IC and CSI. Second, I foresee people talking past each other. Other than the fact that Brainstorms members have discussed starting a similar thread, I don't see its relevance to our board.
If the thread is to stay up, I need to see some new ideas developed on the relationship between IC/CSI systems and their development/evolution. Otherwise, this thread will die a quick death.
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kyle7
Member
Member # 191
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posted 12. April 2002 19:58
This topic seems to reappear in various forms, so I thought it may be beneficial to deal with it directly. Why waste so many posts that skirt this issue? In the larger picture, we need to know the direction we are going to effectively brainstorm. The goal of the ID movement(as I see it) is to break from the naturalistic bindings to obtain scientific answers that a naturalistic framework seems unable to provide. Our goal is to examine science from a new framework, using new tools (e.g. IC and CSI measuring devices). We are not necessarily hostile to Neo-Darwinism, yet we want to be free from a naturalistic framework that precludes an unbiased scientific inquiry into Neo-Darwinism.
The ID movement is a diverse group composed of many religions and various perspectives, however, the focus is on using scientific tools to obtain scientific answers. These ID tools are being developed and expanded upon -- one of the key reasons for this brainstorming thread. Although, groups within the ID movement are free to pursue their own research and objectives, the essential characteristics defining the ID movement are the tools they use and the ID reference frame that they utilize in their research.
Now the moderator wants us to focus on the development of the ID tools. Personally, I like to have a clear picture of my surroundings, before I go to work. Without seeing the big picture you can easily get lost and go in circles.
Perhaps, we could talk about what are the IC and CSI tools. Can we categorize them? Are there new tools that we can think of that may benefit the movement?
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David L Rice
Member
Member # 167
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posted 15. April 2002 12:56
Perhaps, we could talk about what are the IC and CSI tools. Can we categorize them? Are there new tools that we can think of that may benefit the movement?
Yes! - One way that I like to chategorize things is to look at information in the context of both space and time. Read me humble posting 'Light through a dragonfly's eye'. It didn't get any replies but I think it has some applicability to your question here. I'm beginning to see that information is really a landscape (like a road map). There is a spatial and temporal element to information. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) How the information is conveyed is just as important as the actual information itself. Reading a book is no fun if each letter appears on a single page. So it's the grouping of information itself that also points to intelligence. When you group the information the system in question begins to look like a landscape which can be mapped.
Just bouncing thoughts...........
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kyle7
Member
Member # 191
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posted 18. April 2002 04:08
David,
So you think there may be a "new" tool that quantifies the complexity of the conveyance of information. Referring to Shannons, "A Mathematicial Theory of Communication", we could associate a complexity with the transmitter, channel and receiver. Is this what you are getting at? How would you measure this complexity ? Does this complexity have any relationship to the noise source? Does a low-noise complex transmitter (etc.)have greater implications of design?
Now, let us apply this information transfer concept to biological systems. We have a ferilized egg cell that has all the information contained in the DNA. We could maybe view the DNA as the information source. The first cell is the initial transmitter. The second cell would be the initial receiver. This process cascades out until the life form is developed. The final destination is all the information in all the cells of the fully developed life form. You might say that the channels cascade out. The evidence of noise is realized in deformity and error in parts of the DNA. The notion of ID is realized in the complexity of the transmission and reception of the information -- also the lack of noise in the process.
Is this what you are thinking? Can you expand on it?
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kyle7
Member
Member # 191
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posted 19. April 2002 17:19
Areas of study that would benefit from ID methods
In order to identify the tools of the Intelligent Design movement, it is beneficial to identify the areas of study where ID methods are applicable. I will attempt to make a list, but others may have insight that I don't, so feel free to add to this list. Here is my list:
1) Environmental Engineering:
Today, society is beginning to understand that there are hidden economic costs with the environment. Many communities are attaching costs for polluting the environment by taxation and other financial means. The consequence of this is that issues of pollution are becoming big business. Although these issues impact nearly all of business, some of the key areas that have relevance to ID methods are mining, farming, ranching, forestry, oil and the chemical industry. Oftentimes, there is a question concerning the origin of a pollutant. Is the pollution man-made (an ID agent) or is it from natural sources. For example, is the sediment pollution found in a stream due to cattle or due to other natural reasons? Is radioactive material found near a mine the result of mining activity or due to other natural causes? ID methods may be used to address these issues.
2) Military Science:
The recent "War on Terrorism" has highlighted the need for additional tools to fight a guerilla war. Some areas applicable to ID methods are the following:
- Search and Rescue:
Oftentimes aircraft go down in warfare and a rapid response is needed to rescue the wounded and extract personnel before the enemy can subdue them. Planes equipped with specialized cameras and computers could utilize ID methods to identify the downed aircraft. Similar methods could be used for sailors at sea. Also, this could be used for non-military rescue (e.g. identify tracks of a person on the ground or infrared profiles). - Target Identification:
Oftentimes the enemy is hard to distinguish – especially in guerilla warfare. ID methods could be used to identify structures and personnel on the ground and assign a weight specifying the probable military importance of the object. This method could also be used for aircraft in the sky.
- Imagery Processing:
One difficulty of imagery is the large quantities of information that is generated. ID methods could rapidly identify CSI within the photograph. For example, a satellite could take pictures of Afghanistan and search for Al Qaeda training camps. - Military Intelligence:
Spy planes could utilize ID methods similar to some of the above examples.
3) Artificial Intelligence and Robotics:
One of the difficulties of AI is to process the large quantities of information. Humans have an amazing ability to link topics together so that information is rapidly processed. AI has had a hard time with handling the information and ID methods could be a tool to increase the efficiency. For example, a robot equipped with a sense of "touch" could identify CSI and quickly process the information. If a quarter was dropped into a sandbox, the robot could quickly pick it up and if necessary distinguish it from say a rock.
4) Archaeology:
Archaeology has a long history of identifying man-made artifacts. For example, stone tools are made by chipping away the stone to obtain the desired shape. Stone fragments are sometimes found that are not easily identified as man-made tools. Electron microscopy is sometimes used to determine if the artifact is either man-made or natural. Advanced ID methods could aid the archaeologist.
5) Biology
ID methods are being applied to this area and are commonly found here in the brainstorm threads. A number of methods are being applied to DNA and biological systems in general.
6) Astronomy
Some organizations such as SETI are searching for signals signifying the presence of extraterrestrial-intelligent life forms. ID methods are applicable in this search.
7) Astrobiology
A while back a meteorite that originated from Mars was found. Great excitement was generated when molecular structure was found that seemed of biological origin. Could life have originated from Mars? The new field, Astrobiology, grew rapidly with many new members. Also, other researchers have proposed that the first biological structures originated from space. ID methods could be used to investigate the origins of this material. Did intelligent life forms send this material to earth? Was it leftover from some alien travelers lunch?
The ID movement should focus initially in areas that are not as politically charged. I think it should focus on the engineering fields where people are more interested in results and care less about the politics. The areas of computer science, environmental science, robotics are all areas that afford opportunity to advance ID methods. The military could also be a source of funding especially given the war on terrorism.
The ID movement leaders should outline a methodology, so that ID methods can be applied to diverse applications. Once these methods prove themselves beneficial in the engineering environment, other fields of study will have to recognize the scientific merit of the field.
Finally, I should end by examining the direction that I am going. I have presented a number of possible areas where complexity, design and information (the foundation of ID methods) can apply. Next, I will attempt to elucidate some of the ID tools and try to categorize them. I may need to present the ID construct prior to identifying the tools.
A side note: We must recognize the animosity that many naturalists have against the ID movement. They don't like having their worldview challenged and some are zealots out to eliminate discussion and debate. In fact some go to the extent of pretending to be ID proponents only to discredit the group. Many who are postmodernists don't believe in "truth", something requisite of science. Rather, they believe in using power tactics with no qualms about upholding honesty and truth. We should recognize the fact that as some had difficulties with the notion of the earth being round, so too some will have difficulties with the ID movement challenge to naturalism. Rather than grow discouraged, we should focus and move forward with resolution. Fear is held by those who lack certainty, and it resides with those who are consumed with self-doubt. The ID movement should not be arrogant, but it should be confident that the methods used are scientific and worth pursuing.
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