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» ISCID Forums   » General   » Brainstorms   » Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals (Page 10)

 
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Author Topic: Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals
Cre8ionist
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 00:15      Profile for Cre8ionist   Email Cre8ionist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I visited and read all your links (not much to them really) and I must say that my position is even stronger than I'd suspected. It's been a few years since I looked at the state of affairs wrt the origin of trilobites.
Not one link lists the ancestors, nor describes details of eye evolution (Pim your link makes it clear that no eye comes close to the Schizochroal eyes.
quote:
No visual system used in the animal kingdom comes close to the schizochroal eye found in phacopid trilobites. It is believed to have evolved from the holochroal eye through paedomorphis, a process that causes juvenile characteristics of a species to remain dominant even into adulthood.
That's quite a leap of faith you've made there, sorry to say I can't join you though.

Yersinia,

quote:
Oh yeah, and everyone is right about Remine/Cre8tionist being totally confused about what the argument was in the first place. Precambrian rabbits would be a problem because they would appear long before their phylogenetic common ancestors, far outside the usual sloppy error bounds allowed by the fossil record.
Actually,my last post was in response to Pim's question directly, someone's totally confused but I don't think it's me.

Charlie, not quite sure what you mean by "now", Freudian slip perhaps?
quote:
Actually, there is now reasonable evidence that Arthropods existed well before the
Cambrian. This critter is Parvancorina:

Admission that before this critter there wasn't reasonable evidence?
Btw "this critter" has been known for decades. Something new I missed here?

Grape, again, I was responding directly to Pim's question. Nothing to do with the rabbits in PreCambrian argument.

I'll accept your posts as a white flag on trilobite origins........... drink up, and as Pim said "cheers"..........Cre8

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yersinia
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 03:37      Profile for yersinia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Psha, Cre8...what do you want, a complete genetic breakdown of every mutational event involved in the origin of trilobite eyes? When all we have is fossils to go on? From random people that you're quizzing on the web? Sheesh, nothing is good enough for you people.

Unlike what your posted quotes said, it is now quite clear that the oh-so-spiffy trilobite eyes you were crowing about earlier in the thread are actually just found in a *subgroup* of trilobites, and are evidently derived from other kinds of eyes found in other trilobite subgroups. Them eyes didn't come from nowhere. I learned something, but you just let the evidence roll off you like water off a duck...

I guess I should add: if Kurt Wise (who you quoted) thinks that trilobites and their eyes were so wonderfully and carefully designed by a Designer, then why did he let the group undergo a long, agonizing decline for hundreds of millions of years, finally dying out at the end of the Permian?

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Walter ReMine
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 06:44      Profile for Walter ReMine   Email Walter ReMine   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
"... common descent has withstood quite a bit of testing and attempts to falsify." (Pim van Meurs, 09/12/2003)
I disagree. Common descent fails on these points:

  1. The systematic absence of gradualism over large-scales (as measured by our experimental demonstrations).
  2. The systematic absence of clear-cut lineages and ancestors.
  3. The abundance of so-called "convergence".
In effect, classical Darwinism was refuted. When evolutionists retreated to punk ek, they retreated to a position of no-risk, no-lose, untestability. For the only way to 'refute' the major claims of punk ek is by providing compelling evidence for macro-evolution (e.g. classical Darwinism). Heads they win; tails you lose.

quote:
"Evolutionary theory's strength seems to be considered a weakness by Walter." (Pim van Meurs, 09/12/2003)
Evolutionary theory's so-called "strength" is that is can 'explain' virtually any conceivable data -- just like astrology can. Yes, I view that as a weakness. A BIG weakness. And so do evolutionists when discussing any other theory. Evolutionists hold a double-standard -- they demand risky-testability from every other theory but their own.

==========================

quote:
"Walter still seems to argue a strawman namely that a handful exceptions are taken as evidence to extend the theory of evolution. But this is how science works, one does not throw away a perfectly working theory just because of some minor discrepancies, rather one extends the theory to incorporate the newly acquired knowledge. Unless of course a better explanation that describes all the data is presented.

The pattern shows that while common descent is a very strong pattern, there is evidence that other mechanisms such as horizontal transfer may complicate the matters at the root of the tree. Does this require us to reject common descent? Of course not." (Pim van Meurs, 09/12/2003)

I object to Pim van Meurs's chronic misrepresentations of me.

-- Walter ReMine
The Biotic Message

[ 13. September 2003, 07:08: Message edited by: Walter ReMine ]

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Cre8ionist
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 08:24      Profile for Cre8ionist   Email Cre8ionist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Psha, Cre8...what do you want, a complete genetic breakdown of every mutational event
involved in the origin of trilobite eyes? When all we have is fossils to go on? From random
people that you're quizzing on the web? Sheesh, nothing is good enough for you people.

Unlike what your posted quotes said, it is now quite clear that the oh-so-spiffy trilobite
eyes you were crowing about earlier in the thread are actually just found in a *subgroup*
of trilobites, and are evidently derived from other kinds of eyes found in other trilobite
subgroups. Them eyes didn't come from nowhere. I learned something, but you just let the
evidence roll off you like water off a duck...

Please give me the evidence, I missed it, to small to notice on my back perhaps, what I got was basically the response of "paedomorphism: retention in the adult of infantile or juvenile characters . "

Again, from a Darwinist's own link "
No visual system used in the animal kingdom comes close to the schizochroal
eye found in phacopid trilobites. It is believed to have evolved from the
holochroal eye through paedomorphis, a process that causes juvenile
characteristics of a species to remain dominant even into adulthood."

I don't consider the case closed based upon such statements. If it's true that no visual system comes close, and it is, than the juvenile system which you believe preceeded it, is included. This is merely the smoke and mirrors mentioned earlier.

I personally would think it was great if you could produce the best visual system used by retaining juvinile characteristics, but you'll need to actually demonstrate this fanciful claim. BTW, didn't get to hear why you think it was developed so early and whether you agreed that it was way more than trilobites needed. Evolution seems to have worked overtime on this one. The complex before the simple?...........................Why has no eye rivaled this early eye?......................Cre8

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charlie d.
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 09:09      Profile for charlie d.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cre8, you authoritatively quoted a site saying:
quote:
To argue that they came from Precambrian forms that were not preserved because they had no hard parts is to argue again from the ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE. ...
There is no evidence of any earlier form from which they could have been derived. ...
There is no Precambrian evolutionary sequence because there was no Precambrian evolution. ...
Trilobites and all other forms appear on the scene as fully formed, fully competent organisms, period.

Well, period my trilobite. We have just shown you that arthropod-like critters existed before the Cambrian "explosion", some with trilobite-like features, some soft-bodied; that trilobites are just one of several forms of arthropods in the Cambrian; and that trilobites themselves come with all sorts of variations in their features, including their eyes, and that very good fossil evidence exists that these features evolved.

On your side, just saying "gee, sorry, the site I quoted appears to have been rather misinformed regarding the extent of the available evidence for early arthropod and trilobite evolution" would be quite enough. Sheesh.

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yersinia
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 11:49      Profile for yersinia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, here's a bit more, plus a reference on where to look if you actually want to learn something on the topic. Amazingly, not everything is on the web, yet:

quote:

The eyes have it . . .
Ivan R Schwab
British Journal of Ophthalmology 2002;86:372
University of California, Davis, Department of Ophthalmology
http://bjo.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/86/4/372

Christian Huygens (1629–95) the Dutch mathematician, and Rene Descartes, the French philosopher/mathematician who first "correctly" explained the rainbow (1596–1650), independently solved the problem of spherical aberration in a lens, with a doublet lens arrangement; a system that now bears their names. Unbeknown to them, though, evolution had already solved this problem millions of years earlier in small ancient creatures known as trilobites. This subtle, recently decoded, palaeontological tale reveals the microevolutionary principles continuously at work and capable of providing ingenious solutions to the physical problems of vision.

Trilobites arose from the evolutionary crucible of the Cambrian explosion 535 million years ago and evolved for perhaps 300 million years, only to become extinct by the mother of all dyings—the Permian extinction, 235 million years ago. Nevertheless, much is known of these animals from the fossil record because these extinct marine arthropods had hard body parts, which included calcite lenses and allowed preservation in stone. Much remains in the fossil record to assist our understanding of the visual capabilities and experiences of these oldest eyes.

From this fossil record, we know that there were at least two different morphological types of these compound eyes, including holochroal and schizochroal. A third somewhat intermediary type, known as the abathochroal eye, is somewhat less certain, but should probably be considered as a separate morphological form.

The holochroal eye is the earliest and most common model and consists of small, multiple, closely packed, round or hexagonal ommatidia. These individual visual units are covered by a single continuous blanket layer of calcite that is in essence the "cornea." This visual surface could have been shed with ecdysis (moulting), allowing for growth of the organism as well as for the eye. Identical new ommatidia were added below the existing ones in a hexagonal pattern, much like a honeycomb.

The schizochroal eye, a unique variation in compound eyes, was found only in the suborder Phacopina, and was seen during the Ordovician period to survive until the end of the Devonian period. These ommatidia were arranged in a hexagonal packing pattern but were found in a rectilinear pattern with vertical rows, as can be seen from the two examples of trilobites, Phacops rana milleri and Phacops rana crassituberculata, shown on this month's cover. These individual ommatidia were generally larger and had an array different from the holochroal eye. The ommatidia were of different sizes, becoming larger towards the ventral surface of the animal. The first lens in each ommatidium was spherical and was followed by an odd bow-shaped lens with a wave-shaped surface facing the first lens. These two lenses are defined in the optical world as a "doublet." It is this second lens, or the Descartes-Huygens correction lens, that is unique, and perhaps seen in only one or two other animals, and provides for the correction of spherical aberration. This lens system would have increased the contrast sensitivity by as much as fivefold and, in effect, lowered the f-number of the eye (see the February 2001 BJO cover essay for a discussion of the f-number). Because of the convexity of the first lens surface, these schizochroal eyes could even have had stereopsis from adjacent ommatidia in the same eye, although it is doubtful the neurological mechanisms for this were present.

These trilobite species had unusual abathochroal lenses with the central nipple appearance creating an aspherical proximal surface that would help with spherical aberration and would create lenses with bifocal capabilities––a feat emulated by contemporary intraocular lens design. Most likely, though, this system would have created problems with internal reflection and would have limited light collecting efficiency.

Thanks to Levi-Setti et al (The Eye: Palaeontology; Frontiers of Life. London: Academic Press, 2002) the evolution of the optics of these creatures is becoming calcite clear. These investigators suggest that the first trilobite probably had holochroal eyes with only a single calcite lens in the cone of the ommatidium, although there would be optical difficulties with these eyes including diffraction limitations. With room for improvement, the evolutionary tinkering that continued would prove advantageous—especially in a mesopelagic environment—to those species which could evolve improved optics.

A second step would be the appearance of an abathochroal eye with a larger round lens as these animals extended into a dimmer environment. As the lens enlarged the optical system would be less limited by diffraction but rather would be limited by spherical aberration producing a blurred focus.

The third, and truly revolutionary, step to be taken was the formation of a lens doublet with a perfected Huygensian profile. This dramatic but logical evolutionary step would allow for dramatic increased light gathering capabilities and would eliminate spherical aberration, as Descartes and Huygens would learn in the 1600s. Chromatic aberration would probably still exist in such a doublet but in a monochromatic world of mesopelagic light or perhaps even epipelagic light—this would matter little.

Trilobites, especially because of their hard body parts, have contributed much to our understanding of the evolution of the eye and to evolution in general, even though these hardy pioneers were lost to the Permian extinction. To overcome spherical aberration, these creatures didn't need Descartes or Huygens to help them understand the principle of the doublet lens. Long before the appearance of these two scientists, the eyes had it.

Funny how its always us nasty Darwinists doing the research for you guys, isn't it, Cre8?

[ 13. September 2003, 12:05: Message edited by: yersinia ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 13. September 2003 12:37      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
creationist: That's quite a leap of faith you've made there, sorry to say I can't join you though.

Do you even know how such a conclusion/hypothesis was reached? What better hypothesis do you have to offer here?

Trilobites as I have shown hardly seem problematic for Darwinian evolution. At most they are what Judge Overton called "a minor mystery", refering to the polonium halos.

As Charlie, Yersinia and others have shown, the trilobite eye, or at least the eyes of some of them, can be understood in terms of "retention in the adult of infantile or juvenile characters". This is hardly unique in biology btw.

It seems that creationist is making a series of unsupported remarks such as "the complex before the simple', why has no eye rivaled this eye?

The latter one suggests that this eye was somehow advanced beyond others when in fact they are found in a subset of trilobites.

Contrary to Creationist's suggestions the trilobite hardly seems to be a problem for Darwinism.

Some more on trilobite eyes

Btw what is your hypothesis creationist :-)

Cheers my friend

[ 13. September 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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nobody
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Icon 13 posted 13. September 2003 21:54      Profile for nobody     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
these creatures didn't need Descartes or Huygens to help them understand the principle of the doublet lens.
That's an absurd assertion. Trilobites did not "understand the principle of the doublet lens" just as bald eagles do not understand the principle of telescopic vision. They function with whatever capabilities God designed them to have. Only man, of all the animals, has any understanding of the principle of the doublet lens. And our understanding came only through our intelligence and research into the subject.

http://www.assateague.org/plover/4-2001-c.html

Bald Eagles are thought to have the best eyesight of any animal, having up to eight times the resolving power of the human eye. The retina has two focusing foveae (human eyes have only one) which allows them to use both eyes together (binocular vision like humans) for telescopic viewing, or each eye independently (monocular vision) for up close viewing.
* * * * *

The understanding of how to design many remarkable types of eyes remains with the Designer.

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 00:44      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nobody: That's an absurd assertion. Trilobites did not "understand the principle of the doublet lens" just as bald eagles do not understand the principle of telescopic vision. They function with whatever capabilities God designed them to have.

That's all fascinating metaphysically but somewhat useless scientifically I would argue.

Nobody: The understanding of how to design many remarkable types of eyes remains with the Designer.

And who or what the designer is remains to be seen, at least scientifically.

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yersinia
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 01:17      Profile for yersinia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cre8, you *really* need to read Nilsson's work. The laws are optics are physical laws -- trilobites "understand" the laws of optics in the same metaphorical sense that elephants "understand" the laws of gravity with their massive, load-supporting legs. Nilsson shows that complex eyes with lenses etc. can be reached by gradual improvement of an eyespot.

[ 14. September 2003, 01:18: Message edited by: yersinia ]

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Moderator
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 08:47      Profile for Moderator   Email Moderator   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The thread is heading off-topic. All posts from here on out that do not address Paul Nelson's original thesis will be deleted. Additionally, if the thread does not get back on topic within a few days, the thread will be closed.
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charlie d.
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 11:21      Profile for charlie d.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree this discussion of creationist views on trilobites & C is meaningless, and like all such discussions will simply go nowhere.

Maybe if Paul posted the promised link to his poster, possibly with some commentary about its reception (if any) at the SDB meeting, we would have something more interesting to talk about and bring the thread back on track.

[ 14. September 2003, 12:35: Message edited by: charlie d. ]

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Walter ReMine
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 14:30      Profile for Walter ReMine   Email Walter ReMine   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul's subject of "Ontogenetic Depth" has an emphasis on ontogeny and embryological development. Also, Paul gave the provocative question: "If two organisms are not related by common descent, how would you-evolutionists know it?" That causes me to bowl the following simple question right down that lane:

Von Baer's Laws of embryology, (in their modern form, with the "von Baer developmental hour-glass" shape, and all that). First, do these laws represent substantial observational patterns that at least some leading evolutionists accept? (I believe the answer is a "Yes!", but I'll let evolutionists answer for themselves.)

Second, and more curiously, if leading evolutionists accept those patterns as observationally substantial, then precisely how do evolutionists explain those? In short, how are von Baer's Laws explained as compatible with common descent?

I'll let Paul be the judge of how deeply he wishes to have his thread pursue that question.

-- Walter ReMine
The Biotic Message

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Paul A. Nelson
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 14:42      Profile for Paul A. Nelson   Email Paul A. Nelson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry about being delayed in getting the pdf of the poster up here with commentary. I hope Andy Groves will join the discussion (Andy, are you reading this?) -- in Boston, he stopped at my poster to talk and we had a great (too short) conversation, which I'd like to continue here.

As if the five-year delay in getting out On Common Descent wasn't evidence enough of my Guiness Book of World Records slowness... [Frown]

[ 14. September 2003, 14:43: Message edited by: Paul A. Nelson ]

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charlie d.
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 15:59      Profile for charlie d.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't worry, Paul. If your book, as it is rumored, is twice as long as "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory", you'll be fully vindicated. [Wink]
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