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Author
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Topic: Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals
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Pim van Meurs
Member
Member # 541
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posted 18. September 2003 23:56
see also Bininda-Emonds ORP, Jeffery JEJ, and Richardson MK (2002). Inverting the hourglass: quantitative evidence against the phylotypic stage in vertebrate development. Proc R Soc Lond B 270, 341–346
quote:
The concept of a phylotypic stage, when all vertebrate embryos show low phenotypic diversity, is an important cornerstone underlying modern developmental biology. Many theories involving patterns of development, developmental modules, mechanisms of development including developmental integration, and the action of natural selection on embryological stages have been proposed with reference to the phylotypic stage. However, the phylotypic stage has never been precisely defined, or conclusively supported or disproved by comparative quantitative data. We tested the predictions of the ‘developmental hourglass’ definition of the phylotypic stage quantitatively by looking at the pattern of developmentaltiming variation across vertebrates as a whole and within mammals. For both datasets, the results using two different metrics were counter to the predictions of the definition: phenotypic variation between species was highest in the middle of the developmental sequence. This surprising degree of developmental character independence argues against the existence of a phylotypic stage in vertebrates. Instead, we hypothesize that numerous tightly delimited developmental modules exist during the mid embryonic period. Further, the high level of timing changes (heterochrony) between these modules may be an important evolutionary mechanism giving rise to the diversity of vertebrates. The onus is now clearly on proponents of the phylotypic stage to present both a clear definition of it and quantitative data supporting its existence.
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Walter ReMine
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Member # 906
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posted 19. September 2003 04:02
Andy Grove's "modest proposal" is to ignore, brush aside, dis-recognize, and "forget" 150 years of illusions concerning evolution's relationship to von Baer's laws. That's unacceptable. Especially when those illusions are still active. Evolutionists never have given an explicit explanation of von Baer's laws. That's a fact, not an opinion. Von Baer's laws have great historical significance concerning evolutionist thought over the past 150 years. The illusions are part of history and cannot be changed, regardless of your views on von Baer's laws today. (The fact that leading evolutionists still substantially embrace von Baer's laws only amplifies my point.) Paul Nelson asked: If common descent was un-true, then how would you-evolutionists know it? I elevate von Baer's laws as an historical example. For von Baer's laws are essentially ANTI-evolutionary -- they can be made "compatible" with common descent only through awkward back bending (and a bit of word-twisting). If you don't believe me, then TRY IT!!! I challenge you! Take it as an intellectual puzzle: Explain von Baer's laws via common descent! The evolutionists' resistance, (in fact, intransigence, as demonstrated in this thread), to such an explanation is evidence for my point. ===================================== Comments on the Gould quotation (as given in the post by RBH):
- "Von Baer's law makes good sense" -- Gould is not referring to von Baer's laws (plural). He is a careful writer, and is referring to only one "law". Gould's article further makes that clear when it defines "von Baer's law" as a "principle of differentiation" "christened" by people other than von Baer, presumably evolutionists, (whom von Baer opposed). Therefore it cannot be von Baer's laws: (1) which contain no such "principle of differentiation," and (2) were clearly defined by von Baer. Gould's discussion is somewhat ambiguous for our purposes here. Gould's article does not give an explicit explanation of von Baer's laws, because it does not unambiguously address "von Baer's laws," and because what little 'explanation' it does provide is implicit and incomplete (that is, it relies on us to fill-in key pieces), and because his explanation is falsified by earliest ontogeny -- which shows considerable diversity, contrary to his explanation. I do not fault Gould for that, since his article was about personalities, Haeckle's faked embryological drawings, and the history of science -- not von Baer's laws. (in the March 2000 Natural History)
- "nothing in Darwinian theory implies or requires [the von Baer's law] validity" -- Gould is absolutely correct there! As I previously said, the information flow is in the opposite direction -- life's patterns give shape to an otherwise amorphous evolutionary theory. Here it is again from Gould: "the validity and relative frequency of von Baer's law remains an open, empirical question within evolutionary theory, an issue that can be resolved only by observational evidence from a wide variety of organisms."
===================================== My opponent's discussion -- on what is a scientific "law" -- is largely irrelevant. For 150 years (and counting) evolutionists promoted to the public the notion that "von Baer's laws" are easily 'compatible with,' 'predicted by,' or 'evidence for' evolution. That was an illusion, no matter what you mean by the word "law." So, if you like my following point, fine. And if you don't, then it scarcely changes my above arguments. A "theory" is an explanation; whereas a scientific "law" is merely a description. Kepler's laws described planetary motion; Newton's theory explained it. Von Baer's laws are called "laws" because they are purely descriptive -- they make no attempt to explain things (unlike recapitulation theory). They needn't be "perfect" in order to carry considerable scientific weight, especially within phenomena as complex as life and embryology. If you expect embryological laws to be "perfect," then you have misplaced the role of scientific laws. -- Walter ReMine The Biotic Message ===================================== THIS JUST IN: Without flinching, Pim van Meurs cheerfully posted research showing that "phenotypic variation between species was highest in the middle of the developmental sequence." Let's see then. We already knew species start development with rather different early stages, and end with rather different adult stages, and this new research suggests they are even more different in the middle stages! Wowsers! Now watch as evolutionists 'explain' how that's all compatible with common descent!....... Moral of the story: As practiced by evolutionists, evolution is compatible with virtually any pattern.
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Moderator
Administrator
Member # 1
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posted 19. September 2003 08:04
Walter, I'm issuing a warning to you for your hostile/combative tone.
This board is not here for you to prove a point, or to win a battle. You can go elsewhere for those types of discussions.
ignore, brush aside, dis-recognize, and "forget" [ 19. September 2003, 08:04: Message edited by: Moderator ]
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Moderator
Administrator
Member # 1
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posted 19. September 2003 10:05
This thread is being closed until Paul provides us with relevant material to get the discussion back on track.
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