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Author Topic: Trilobite origin: proposal of a blind test
Cre8ionist
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 09:42      Profile for Cre8ionist   Email Cre8ionist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We've just had a small debate on trilobite origins in another thread, (Click here, pg 8 and on ), that got into full swing with Pim's question "What is so special about the origin of trilobites btw?" To which I replied with a couple of quotes to help spell out the problems. I maintain that trilobites appear early in the history of life, and that they are fully formed, and without a transitional forms leading up to them that would point to their evolving from lower creatures. While the bulk of the debate centered around the schizochroal compound eye (one supposed great leap was mentioned, but not specified in any detail at all), not much attention was paid to the original question. I claim that evolutionist's are using smoke and mirrors to bolster their position. I now propose a blind test of sorts to separate the wheat from the chaff as it were.

I propose that those who claim that the trilobite's origins are not a problem for Darwinian evolution each post to this thread, over the next day or so, a simple post of the following format:

transition 1(with reference and picture where possible), -> transition 2 -> ->->....trilobite
in the sequence they believe in, now the blind part, without looking at anyone elses post for support.
At the end, we'll see if the evidence is in for trilobite evolution from lower forms. This would of course be
on the honor system. Please no commentary in the first posts. Afterwards we can vigorously debate
the transitional forms and any differences in the order you provide if you'd like. But I could possibly be convinced by one or so of your posts to change my mind about the state of the evidence, so we'll see. Maybe there won't even need to be a debate afterwards.

I of course maintain that Earth was seeded by an intelligent designer in the form of certain basic kinds (of which trilobites are one). From those basic kinds ->life descended (not ascended). Through a combination of naturally occurring processes which include but are not limited to pre-programming, natural selection, mutation and enviroment...............Cre8

PS I hope that this topic is important enough that the mod will let it go for a while. Some progress could be made in seeing if a basic kind theory fits the early fossil evidence better than the gradualist theory. If not, I'm sure I'll talk to you all again. Oh, one quick question on a different topic if I may, I was sent a tape of James Gardner on of all things the Art Bell show, he claimed he would be debating Dembski the following weekend (which would have been this weekend I believe), can anyone clear this up? Old, new, truth, fiction? Transcript available?
email me at cre8ionist@intelligentdesign.org with Dembski in the subject please. Thanks in advance......

[ 14. September 2003, 09:47: Message edited by: Cre8ionist ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 4 posted 14. September 2003 14:20      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Creationist seems to fail to understand that even if the fossil record so far may be insufficient to identify the ancestors of the trilobite that this cannot be used as evidence against the trilobite. As I have shown the trilobite family shows exquisite examples of evolution.

I propose to those who see the trilobite as a problem for evolution that they propose their reasons.

C: While the bulk of the debate centered around the schizochroal compound eye (one supposed great leap was mentioned, but not specified in any detail at all),

C considers this a leap and yet argues at the same time that no detail was presented. How did C determine if this was truely a leap?

Trilobite eyes mentions the following 'No visual system used in the animal kingdom comes close to the schizochroal eye found in phacopid
trilobites. It is believed to have evolved from the holochroal eye through paedomorphis, a process
that causes juvenile characteristics of a species to remain dominant even into adulthood."

paedomorphis is a concept which can be observed elsewhere and thus seems hardly to be vague.
Yersinia also references "The eyes have it"

quote:

Thanks to Levi-Setti et al (The Eye: Palaeontology; Frontiers of Life. London: Academic Press, 2002) the evolution of the optics of these creatures is becoming calcite clear. These investigators suggest that the first trilobite probably had holochroal eyes with only a single calcite lens in the cone of the ommatidium, although there would be optical difficulties with these eyes including diffraction limitations. With room for improvement, the evolutionary tinkering that continued would prove advantageous—especially in a mesopelagic environment—to those species which could evolve improved optics.

A second step would be the appearance of an abathochroal eye with a larger round lens as these animals extended into a dimmer environment. As the lens enlarged the optical system would be less limited by diffraction but rather would be limited by spherical aberration producing a blurred focus.

The third, and truly revolutionary, step to be taken was the formation of a lens doublet with a perfected Huygensian profile. This dramatic but logical evolutionary step would allow for dramatic increased light gathering capabilities and would eliminate spherical aberration, as Descartes and Huygens would learn in the 1600s. Chromatic aberration would probably still exist in such a doublet but in a monochromatic world of mesopelagic light or perhaps even epipelagic light—this would matter little.

Things get better the more science looks at these issues

Survey of Modern Counterparts of Schizochroal Trilobite Eyes: Structural and Functional Similarities and Differences

More on pre-cambrian trilobites

here

quote:

What are ichnofossils? They are trace fossils: preserved tracks or other signs of the behaviors of animals in the substrate. Ichnofossils can provide some very intriguing insights on the behavior of an extinct animal such as a trilobite. It is very rare that the animal itself is found in direct association with the ichnofossil it created, but that kind of co-occurrence allows scientists to link ichnofossils with the species that created them. In fact, in the pre-Cambrian fossil record, there are no trilobites, but there are trace fossils which very closely resemble those made by trilobites, suggesting that before trilobites developed their hard calcite shells, their ancestors were crawling about leaving traces. While there are hundreds of named ichnofossil types, there are three main named categories of ichnofossils associated with trilobites: Rusophycus, Cruziana, and Diplichnites, described below.

trilobite classification

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[ 14. September 2003, 14:36: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Rex Kerr
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 14:50      Profile for Rex Kerr     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am not an expert on paleontology, and thus will not be playing Cre8tionists's trilobite-transitional-forms game.

I do have a couple of questions about what it is supposed to look like. First of all, science is usually a collaborative project. Why ask people to restrict themselves from reading each others' posts? That sounds like a good way to make people do a lot of extra, unnecessary work, as multiple people reference the same set of documents in the literature that we've found on PubMed and websites. (I don't think any of us are experts in trilobite evolution--what else could we do?)

Second, it isn't clear to me that fossils from any organisms exist spread over the right period of time to capture many transitional forms. Would answers of, "Sorry, we don't have any fossil records of anything between 527-531MYA" be acceptable? From the arrows drawn by Cre8, one gets the impression that perhaps even dozens of intermediates are wanted. My impression is that this is an impossible task given the small number of fossil deposits of the right ages. Perhaps I'm wrong; does Cre8tionist have any information on numbers and age-ranges of fossil deposits from that era?

[ 14. September 2003, 14:53: Message edited by: Rex Kerr ]

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yersinia
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 14:54      Profile for yersinia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah yes, I found the same page as Pim there. It's important to know that the first cladogram of paleozoic arthropods hasn't gotten you to trilobites yet.

Pim's figure:
 -

Zooming in on the leftmost branch of Pim's figure:

 -

...and then zooming in on the clade of close trilobite relatives:

 -

Are you really going to tell us, Cre8, that the trilobites, helmetiids, tegopeltids, naraoiids, etc. were all independently created kinds?

What, by the way, is your definition of a kind? Trilobites are traditionally a class, like mammals and birds. If we show you the intermediates between mammals and reptiles, and birds and reptiles, will you accept evolution then?

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yersinia
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 15:00      Profile for yersinia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And going further back:

quote:

http://www.swcp.com/~diamond/trilobites.html

Certain creationists have pressed the allegation that the fossil record contains no evidence of predecessors or ancestors to trilobites and that the "abrupt" first appearance of trilobites is thus positive evidence for the instantaneous creation of the lineage. However, this assertion is plainly untenable if the fossil record is examined in more than a cursory manner. The Early Cambrian was a time when numerous taxa, including the arthropods, attained mineralized skeletons (Lipps and Signor, 1992); any soft-bodied ancestors of these taxa would have had little chance for preservation as fossils. (While soft-bodied organisms can be preserved under exceptional conditions, these conditions are very rare. Normally, it is only the hard-parts of organisms that are preserved as fossils.) Nonetheless, the fossil record does offer two lines of direct evidence that point to the existence of trilobite predecessors.

EVIDENCE FROM TRACE FOSSILS
The first line of evidence comes from trace fossils, the preserved tracks, trails, and burrows of living organisms. Marine sedimentary rocks of many different ages (Cambrian to Permian) have been found to contain a very distinctive suite of burrows, scratch-marks and furrowing traces that can confidently be ascribed to the activitites of trilobites (Seilacher, 1970; Crimes, 1973). Indeed, rare specimens have been found which contain trilobite body fossils within the burrows (Osgood, 1970). In sections of rock that span the boundary between the Cambrian and the preceding Vendian Period, these distinctive trace fossils are commonly found in strata which are lower stratigraphically (and thus older) than those containing the first preserved trilobite skeletons (Crimes, 1987, 1994). Non-existent organisms cannot produce burrows, and so these trace fossils demonstrate that trilobites, or their ancestors, did in fact exist prior to the first appearance of trilobite body fossils. Even more intriguing is the observed fact that these trace fossils become increasingly more complex with time during the period preceding the advent of mineralized skeletons (Crimes, 1992). This implies that the behaviors of these ancestral trilobites were evolving.

EVIDENCE FROM THE PRECAMBRIAN FOSSIL RECORD
The second line of evidence comes from the fortuitously preserved soft-bodied organisms of the latest Precambrian-aged (Vendian) Ediacaran Fauna. The Ediacaran Fauna were traditionally interpreted as ancestral representatives of and predecessors to taxonomic groups which occur more abundantly in the Cambrian Period (Glaessner, 1984; Fedonkin, 1985). This view was challenged by Seilacher (1984, 1989), who argued that the Ediacaran Fauna were not animals but instead were a group of structurally unique organisms belonging to a previously unrecognized kingdom, dubbed the Vendozoa. Seilacher's hypothesis has been vigourously debated (Gehling, 1991; Fedonkin, 1992; Conway Morris, 1993; Crimes et al., 1995) and Seilacher himself seems to have moved away from his earlier hypothesis (Buss and Seilacher, 1994). The present consensus is apparently that while the Vendozoan hypothesis may apply to some Ediacaran organisms, it does not apply to them all. Certainly, representatives of several extant phyla have been convincingly documented (Gehling, 1987, 1988, 1991; Fedonkin, 1992).

The organisms represented in the Ediacaran fauna were soft-bodied and are preserved as impressions, generally (but not exclusively) on the soles (bottoms) of sandstone beds. They were apparently preserved as the result of the fortuitous sediment-binding action of microbial mats (Gehling, 1991; Seilacher and Pfluger, 1994). In Gehling's (1991, p. 218) view, these microbial mats "acted both to erosion proof the substrates occupied by organisms buried under storm sands, and to initiate immediate mineral encrusting of organic surfaces and cementataion of the sand at the interface." (The interface referred to is the one between layers of sediment.) This mode of preservation seems to have been confined to the Precambrian--it was presumably curtailed by the activities of microbe-eating burrowing and grazing organisms which appeared in the latest Precambrian and early Cambrian (Gehling, 1991; Crimes, 1992, 1994).

The Ediacaran Fauna contains several species which may represent, if not ancestral trilobites, then at least ancestral arthropods. These include such taxa as Vendia, Vendomia, Onega, Praecambridium, Parvancorina, and Marywadea (Gehling, 1991; Fedonkin, 1992; Jenkins, 1992). All of these genera show well-developed head and tail differentiation and possess body outlines such as might be expected in a primitive arthropod. There is one additional taxon, yet to be formally described, which shows great promise to elucidate the early history of the trilobites. It has been described in the following terms by Gehling (1991, p. 206):

A new metameric form . . . features a head end with a symmetrically placed D- shaped ridge. The ridge parallels the front margin, and seems to contain a domed area within. The body has a raised axial zone, and segments that show evidence of articulation . . . This organism has more external resemblance to the trilobites than any form so far described from the Ediacara assemblage.

The photograph which Gehling provides (Plate 4, Fig. 4) definitely supports his last assertion. The same taxon has also been described in more detail by Jenkins (1992), who dubs it a "soft- bodied trilobite" and states that, "Its observed characteristics occur in a variety of Paleozoic trilobites, but it can probably be considered to differ from all known forms at the ordinal level" (p. 169). Jenkins (1992, Figure 15) figures sketches of several specimens of the organism; like Gehling's photograph, they show an organism strongly resembling a trilobite.

CONCLUSION
The fossil record provides a significant amount of evidence for the existence of trilobites prior to their aquisition of a mineralized skeleton. Trace fossils offer a record of the evolving behavior of the soft-bodied ancestral trilobites, while material in the Ediacaran Fauna indicates the presence of probable primitive arthropods and likely presence of ancestral trilobites in the latest Precambrian. Assertions that trilobites appear "instantaneously" in the rocks of the Cambrian System, without any sign of ancestral forms, are plainly incorrect.


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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 14. September 2003 16:03      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
More exciting trilobite stuff

quote:

The bilobed trace fossil Didymaulichnus cf. tirasensis Palij in the Lower Cambrian Voosi Formation of western Estonia adds to the small number of pre-trilobite Cambrian trace fossils identified from Estonia. A possible earliest Cambrian Baltica trace fossil province, including trace fossils with an undulating bilobed and three-lobed lower surface, of which D. tirasensis is an example, is proposed. In Baltica traces of this type occur also in the Ukraine and northern Scandinavia. In each occurrence they are associated with vertical spiral traces and precede the local first appearance of arthropod-type trace fossils. The earliest Estonian arthropod-type trace fossil, Monomorphichnus isp., described here from the Sõru Formation, belongs to the trilobite-bearing Lower Cambrian.

TRACE FOSSILS DIDYMAULICHNUS CF. TIRASENSIS AND MONOMORPHICHNUS ISP. FROM THE ESTONIAN LOWER CAMBRIAN, WITH A DISCUSSION ON THE EARLY CAMBRIAN
ICHNOCOENOSES OF BALTICA by Sören JENSEN and Kaisa MENS in Proc. Estonian Acad. Sci. Geol., 2001, 50, 2, 75–85

Also the paper "Precambrian-Cambrian transition: Death Valley, United States" shows the progress being made in our understanding of the pre-cambrian/ediacaran

And of course Spriggina

[QUOTE]
SPRIGGINA IS A TRILOBITOID ECDYSOZOAN
MCMENAMIN, Mark A.S., Department of Earth and Environment, Mount Holyoke College, South Hadley, MA 01075, mmcmenam@mtholyoke.edu.
Convincingly specific homologies between Ediacarans and members of recognized animal phyla have remained elusive, thus casting a shadow of doubt over the animal affinity interpretation of Ediacaran phylogeny. Spriggina floundersi, for example, has been described as a tomopterid annelid, an arthropod, and a frondose vendobiont. Reanalysis of Spriggina demonstrates the presence of genal spines (comparable to those of fallotaspidoid and paradoxidid trilobites), a cephalic region homologous to the effaced cephalons of agraulid and skehanid trilobites, and a dual cephalic region (also seen in Parvancorina) that compares to the parts of a trilobite cephalon anterior and posterior of the facial suture. Spriggina is thus a trilobitoid ecdysozoan, a conclusion in accord with Sven Jorgen Birket-Smith?s inference of an arthropod affinity for Spriggina. This result is among the first confident phylogenetic linkages between an Ediacaran and a Cambrian animal, and thus helps to demonstrate that Paleozoic animals could indeed be descended from Ediacarans. If Spriggina is a direct ancestor of trilobites, then a case can be made that Spriggina itself (or a direct descendant) served as the predator taxon that initiated the Cambrian ecotone transformation (McMenamin, M. A. S., 2003, Origin and early evolution of predators: The ecotone model and early evidence for macropredation. In: P. Kelley, M. Kowalewski and T. Hansen, eds., Predator-Prey Interactions in the Fossil Record). Such heterotrophy, however, does not preclude the possibility of photosymbiosis or other types of mixotrophy in Ediacarans with high surface area such as Marywadea and Dickinsonia.

[ 14. September 2003, 16:59: Message edited by: Moderator ]

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Cre8ionist
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 09:51      Profile for Cre8ionist   Email Cre8ionist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To all,

I started this thread to try to discern the actual from the hyped evidence of Darwinian evolution wrt the origins of the trilobites. I posted the following:

quote:
I propose that those who claim that the trilobite's origins are not a problem for Darwinian evolution each post to this thread, over the next day or so, a simple post of the following format:

transition 1(with reference and picture where possible), -> transition 2 -> ->->....trilobite
in the sequence they believe in, now the blind part, without looking at anyone elses post for support.
At the end, we'll see if the evidence is in for trilobite evolution from lower forms. This would of course be
on the honor system. Please no commentary in the first posts.

I received absolutely no posts of that format. Common courtesy would dictate that you would follow the thread creator's lead, or not post. No one is compelling you to post in this thread. I know that not posting would look like there's little or no evidence for the Darwinian origin of the trilobites, but let's face it, there's little or no evidence for the Darwinian origin of the trilobites. I want to use Yersinia for a launching pad here:

quote:
Are you really going to tell us, Cre8, that the trilobites, helmetiids, tegopeltids, naraoiids, etc. were all independently created kinds?

What, by the way, is your definition of a kind? Trilobites are traditionally a class, like mammals and birds. If we show you the intermediates between mammals and reptiles, and birds and reptiles, will you accept evolution then?

No I'm not going to tell you that Yer, that's an open question. One person cannot possibly hope to answer the question of which are the basic kinds. It would take an army of researchers many years to unravel such a thing. When you can get such disparity as a poodle and a Great Dane from just one kind, it puts an onerous burden on science to say the least. But, I am going to tell you that sister groups (creatures which share their most recent common ancestor, e.g., crocs and birds, trilobites and helmetiids) are not evidence of transitions leading to origins. I would have hoped you would at least know that.

Wrt reptiles/mammals etc....That's a good case in point. If I had asked you the to do the same blind test on that transition, ask yourself honestly, would you have posted in the proper format. If you answer yes, then you are what I consider a koolaid drinking Darwinist (explained in the other thread), you must act like there is evidence even when there is not. Again, I'll accept your posts as white flags on trilobite origins.

Rex, I'm sorry you didn't want to "play" my game. The way to do it though, is not to post as the debate could have proceeded without the smoke and mirrors I've just exposed............................Cre8

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yersinia
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 14:58      Profile for yersinia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cre8, you gave no particular justification or reason for your peculiar requirements. None of us here have PhDs in trilobite paleontology, so of course we're going to have to look things up. Science is about collaboration, so why don't you want to let various people contribute what they discover? I showed you a whole bunch of early arthropods and how experts place them phylogenetically, and then quoted a discussion of precambrian arthropods.

Why should we believe your your unsupported notion of "created kinds" when you can't even tell us generally how a kind is recognized? Kinds imply that groups are distinct, but the fossils you have been shown above seem to show that the groups ain't so distinct.

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gedanken
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 15:12      Profile for gedanken         Edit/Delete Post 
Cre8, while I appreciate the possibility that this could simply be a research thread, it gave the appearance of an "have you quit beating your wife yet" kind of question.

If no one who understood the evolution of trilobites posted, indeed as you say it would look as though there was not such information. Would you then use that to make a claim like that?

Then if they posted in the strict format requested, we all know that there would be variations in the potential pathways. This is just as you commented on some other kind of "research", it is an ongoing question that does not have a single and completely formulated answer.

So if they had answered in your "format" as requested, once again you could use that to make what I would think is misleading statements that science has no answer for that question or is contradictory. But it is not "contradictory" if the posts had been given of the individual's best guess--since the science is indeed not completely certain yet has very solid evidence within a range of possibilities.

So while I completely agree with the desire for letting a proposition "breathe". This was not a research or conceptual proposition, it appears to have been a fishing expedition looking for a carefully controlled type of “ammunition”. That’s what it looks like to me. Posters should be able to explain what they are posting in any reasonable expectation of answers to questions, and should not be constrained to produce a particular argumentative result.

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charlie d.
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 17:15      Profile for charlie d.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
LOL, Cre8.
Sorry if the format of the replies doesn't really conform to prescriptions. Regardless, though, it shouldn't be so hard for you to address the issue of evolution of arthropods and trilobites as presented. So, just go ahead.

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Cre8ionist
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 19:35      Profile for Cre8ionist   Email Cre8ionist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Funny, I've participated in a thread here which had criteria to meet, no complaints, but when
I ask for certain criteria to be met, I'm jabbed for it. The criteria were meant to separate the evidence from the hype. Simple criteria really. And as I pointed out if I had asked the same question I asked, used the same formula I used, except on the reptile/mammal transitions, I'm sure I would have been accomadated. I don't think I'd be hearing that you're not paleontologists etc....So in the future don't pretend you have evidence you don't, and we'll be fine. Wrt trilobite origins, specifically they can now be safely moved into the basic kind camp without fear of contradiction. Along with about all the other Cambrian animals. Now, I don't think that means that Darwinian evolution's wrong and Creationism's right based on sudden appearance alone, by any stretch. I do think it means however (to borrow from an over used creationist quote) to the unbiased, the fossil record of the trilobite favors special creation.......Cre8

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gedanken
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 20:57      Profile for gedanken         Edit/Delete Post 
I think it was the specifics of the criteria that were significant. They were quite obviously (whether intentional or not) going to indicate possible multiple pathways, or to have none at all indicated. This particular criteria was not one that posters considered reasonable.
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Cre8ionist
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 21:23      Profile for Cre8ionist   Email Cre8ionist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ged,

And I think the criteria would have been fine if I would have used a critter they thought they could win on. The criteria was specifically created to be koolaid resistant, and I think it performed great. No, it wasn't the criteria that was the problem, it was the object the criteria focused on that was the problem. I doubt that the order of transitional forms played a role, it was the non-existence of transitional forms which really screwed up their posts. It worked so well I may use this criteria in other forums/chats to sift through the geedunk gedank...........................................Cre8

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 23:19      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Creationist questioned the origins of the trilobite and claimed "I maintain that trilobites appear early in the history of life, and that they are fully formed, and without a transitional forms leading up to them that would point to their evolving from lower creatur".

As I and others have shown this is incorrect.

Then C. continues with this remarkable statement namely "I do think it means however (to borrow from an over used creationist quote) to the unbiased, the fossil record of the trilobite favors special creation"

I thought we were discussing science here? What is special creation? Any details? Why does it favor special creation? Is it our ignorance of many of the details? But that would make C.'s example an prime example of "Special creation of the gaps".

So far it is clear that the evidence does not support C's portrayal of the trilobite record and although many aspects remain unknown, the conclusion that this supports special creation seems the be the antithesis of scientific inquiry in which our ignorance is seen as evidence of a vague and so far unscientific concept.

I also find C's statement "And I think the criteria would have been fine if I would have used a critter they thought they could win on" interesting since it suggests that C's very well aware of the fossil record's strenghts. Instead he seems to have focused on an area in which the fossil record is incomplete and in which we lack direct DNA evidence of trilobites allowing us to fully and completely understand the origins and evolution of this remarkable groups of animals. Nevertheless, the data we do have do seem to contradict C's presumptions.

I think we have learned a lot here.

[ 15. September 2003, 23:21: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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gedanken
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Icon 1 posted 15. September 2003 23:58      Profile for gedanken         Edit/Delete Post 
Cre8, with regard to "non-existence of transitional forms," did you mean that there were no forms in between all the different forms that were presented?

(And if there had been another form between any pair shown, would you have pointed out that there were two gaps that did not have forms in between?)

I guess I don't understand the basis of what Cre8 has claimed yet. If this is to develop, Cre8 needs to explain further, and also put that in context of all the evidence for transitions in the fossil record that were shown.

Of course "special creation," if it occurred at all, could occur at any point, even one that looked almost identical to another form. Is there a test here that differentiates your claims based on observation? More specifically I don't see how any thing presented in any way contradicts the evolutionary scenario, and I don't see how any observable could contradict a "special creation", so I don't see yet how to construct any sort of scientific distinction based on observation.

Also as I look over the posts, I see the exact answers to Cre8's questions, but with additional commentary that Cre8 requested be left off. Am I missing something?

And I don't see how Cre8's "conditions" were going to improve any presentation's accuracy with respect to evidence. Cre8, could you explain how those criterion would improve presentation of evidence? I still see them as calculated to filter out in one way or another the actual evidence, or any explanations that would be needed to understand that evidence.

How would the restriction of posters not looking at prior posters improve any evidence? It would only produce a difference in the evidence based on different views of the uncertain pathways. Cre8, what other useful purpose would that restriction serve.

I still don't see any importance in the "restrictions" except for creating a loaded question.

[ 16. September 2003, 00:13: Message edited by: gedanken ]

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