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Topic: Fernando Castro-Chavez: Some Implications for the Study of Intelligent Design ...
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nobody
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posted 25. March 2004 12:31
quote: DNA and RNA are the Biological Software, you can see that there was a designer of them.
I like your term "Biological Software"! Did you coin that phrase?
I have mostly used the term "Programming of Life" but, if you don't mind, I think I will switch. Your terminology sounds more precise.
I do have one question for you though: Would you limit Biological Software to just DNA and RNA?
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Fernando Castro-Chavez
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posted 25. March 2004 20:16
Nobody,
I used that expression in an internal seminar at Baylor College of Medicine in April 2002:
http://personales.com/mexico/guadalajara/RV1960/alan_robertson.htm
The Hardware, in the same computational simile is, together: the Cell, the Tissue and the Full Organism.
The Proteins are the product of the Software (being the Software the DNA and RNA), a protein is like a third dimensional copy obtained by your molecular printer (the Ribosome), the amazing miracle of life is that the Software and its products regulate the Hardware, and vice-versa.
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nobody
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posted 26. March 2004 12:21
quote: the amazing miracle of life is that the Software and its products regulate the Hardware, and vice-versa.
Yes. It's not a matter of "Which came first? The chicken or the egg?"
With life the hardware and the software are both required at the same time. It's obvious that abiogenesis never happened, yet evolutionists continue teaching it as fact.
I do have a question though: What is the best way to describe a gene regulatory network? Hardware? Software? Or both?
http://doegenomestolife.org/science/generegulatorynetwork.shtml
A regulatory network can be viewed as a cellular input-output device. At minimum, a gene regulatory network typically contains the following components: (1) an input signal reception and transduction system that mediates intra and extracellular cues (left box; often, more than one signal impinges on a given target gene); (2) a "core component" complex composed of transacting regulatory proteins and cognate cis-acting DNA sequences (circle; functionally similar components may be associated with multiple target genes, resulting in similar gene-expression patterns); and (3) primary molecular outputs from target genes, which are RNA and protein (box to right of circle). The net effects are changes in cell phenotype and function (right box). Direct and indirect feedbacks typically are important. More realistic networks often feature multiple tiers of regulation, with first-tier gene products regulating expression of another group of genes, and so on. Beyond GRN boundaries are signaling responses and feedbacks, such as those that drive bacterial chemotaxis, which do not involve regulation of gene expression but instead act directly on proteins and protein machine assemblies (dashed arrows). Some regulatory networks have no embedded GRN component.
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Pim van Meurs
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posted 26. March 2004 12:31
Nobody: With life the hardware and the software are both required at the same time. It's obvious that abiogenesis never happened, yet evolutionists continue teaching it as fact.
While it may be 'obvious' to some, the evidence however suggests exciting and yes, speculative, scenarios that deal with origins of life, the hardware and software and how this could have happened. Rather than giving up, science has picked up the challenge and enhanced our knowledge about what happened almost 4 billion years ago. That by itself is fascinating, being able to look back in time that far.
What science has found is evidence of how the genetic code may have evolved, evidence of DNA precursor RNA world, evidence of perhaps 'lipid world'.
What science has also found is that simple evolutionary principles are able to explain the scale free nature of RNA and DNA (protein) networks. Combine this work with the information theoretical work by such people as Toussaint and one may gain fascinating insight into the evolution and origin of life on this earth. Imagine that, 'software and hardware' that evolved from a bootstrap method. Fascinating how we tend to use teleological terminology to describe the intrinsic nature of nature
I quote from the 'Lipid World FAQ'
quote:
How might this "lipid life" have triggered the nucleic acid based biota we see today?
This is the topic of our next papers. We foresee a slow, graded takeover, in whi ch, driven by the rudimentary capacity of lipid GARD assemblies to replicate and evolve, ch emical selection will favor a small subset of monomers, PRIOR to any polymerization. N ext, very short polymers would gradually form, inside the GARD assemblies, and driven by t he vey high local concentration of monomers (dilution is one of polymerization's problems). All this will happen within an already existing mutually catalytic network, which as can be shown mathematically, will favor some reactions and abolish others. This gradual passa ge from a very primitive network with monomers only to ones with longer and longer polymer s may in fact be the solution to the Chicken & Egg problem. But the major answer to this question - we still have to work hard to find out how this happened. But, there is consolat ion in claiming that RNA and DNA are the RESULTS of an evolutionary process rather than is prerequisites.
And the PNAS paper
Compositional genomes: Prebiotic information transfer in mutually catalytic noncovalent assemblies by Daniel Segré, Dafna Ben-Eli, and Doron Lancet
quote:
Mutually catalytic sets of simple organic molecules have been suggested to be capable of self-replication and rudimentary chemical evolution. Previous models for the behavior of such sets have analyzed the global properties of short biopolymer ensembles by using graph theory and a mean field approach. In parallel, experimental studies with the autocatalytic formation of amphiphilic assemblies (e.g., lipid vesicles or micelles) demonstrated self-replication properties resembling those of living cells. Combining these approaches, we analyze here the kinetic behavior of small heterogeneous assemblies of spontaneously aggregating molecules, of the type that could form readily under prebiotic conditions. A statistical formalism for mutual rate enhancement is used to numerically simulate the detailed chemical kinetics within such assemblies. We demonstrate that a straightforward set of assumptions about kinetically enhanced recruitment of simple amphiphilic molecules, as well as about the spontaneous growth and splitting of assemblies, results in a complex population behavior. The assemblies manifest a significant degree of homeostasis, resembling the previously predicted quasi-stationary states of biopolymer ensembles (Dyson, F. J. (1982) J. Mol. Evol. 18, 344-350). Such emergent catalysis-driven, compositionally biased entities may be viewed as having rudimentary "compositional genomes." Our analysis addresses the question of how mutually catalytic metabolic networks, devoid of sequence-based biopolymers, could exhibit transfer of chemical information and might undergo selection and evolution. This computed behavior may constitute a demonstration of natural selection in populations of molecules without genetic apparatus, suggesting a pathway from random molecular assemblies to a minimal protocell.
Speculative of course but at the same time knowledge enhancing.
This leads to the next paper
A model for the emergence of cooperation, interdependence, and structure in evolving networks by Sanjay Jain and Sandeep Krishna
quote:
Evolution produces complex and structured networks of interacting components in chemical, biological, and social systems. We describe a simple mathematical model for the evolution of an idealized chemical system to study how a network of cooperative molecular species arises and evolves to become more complex and structured. The network is modeled by a directed weighted graph whose positive and negative links represent "catalytic" and "inhibitory" interactions among the molecular species, and which evolves as the least populated species (typically those that go extinct) are replaced by new ones. A small autocatalytic set, appearing by chance, provides the seed for the spontaneous growth of connectivity and cooperation in the graph. A highly structured chemical organization arises inevitably as the autocatalytic set enlarges and percolates through the network in a short analytically determined timescale. This self organization does not require the presence of self-replicating species. The network also exhibits catastrophes over long timescales triggered by the chance elimination of "keystone" species, followed by recoveries
Not just does science address the origin of life but also the evolution of complexity, information etc while also addressing the observations of scale free networks, gene duplication, modularity, evolvability, robustness etc. [ 26. March 2004, 12:39: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]
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Fernando Castro-Chavez
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posted 26. March 2004 22:24
Nobody,
Your expression "Programming of Life" is very good, as also your question is.
A "Gene Regulatory Network" can be seen basically as the interaction of the Software (DNA and RNA), and its "Three Dimensional" copy-products (the proteins); so, can be considered like the software with the highest plasticity under normal conditions, perfectly designed to be "self-fixable".
The proteins are the primary (The Protos) link between the biological Software and the biological Hardware, they are the building blocks for the Hardware, those structural compartments in which we can also include the "organelles" within a cell.
So, I can say that while the proteins have a regulatory role and interact with nucleic acids, then they can be considered as the finger part of the software.
However, when the proteins became structural, or lack of interaction at all with nucleic acids, then they can be considered as the key components of the hardware, or the ones "swimming loose" but whose do not interact with nucleic acids, then can be considered as the hardware "plug-ins".
So yes, proteins are in both categories, and their classification depends of the dominant context in which they are located.
I deeply appreciate your thought provoking observations, questions and remarks.
To Pim I must say that all the random scenarios imagined by the evolutionary thought require graduation and a very 10000ng time full of ceros, but the findings of the appearance of all kinds of organisms on the ocean at the same time without any graduation contradicts any fantasy, no matter how exciting it may sound. Isn't more exciting that the full movie of the origin and the end of life has been already revealed to mankind? However, it is too bad that mankind resists it, giving their trust rather to theories that become nothing with the "next one", Darwin, the fake embryos of H., then piltdown, then S. J. Gould, then the RNA world, or perhaps the 'lipid world', or perhaps something else tomorrow...
The genomic analysis of human populations that we have now presents a history that many reject, a short antiquity for mankind with a further bottleneck. The paleontology and geological analysis that we have now presents a history that many reject, a history of a sudden and not gradual appearance of species, a cataclysm and a second sudden and not gradual appearance of species, but, oh what a... people prefers to delight themselves in their own imaginations, and so they even pretend to be wise.
Let's see one of those mentioned testimonies that flatly discard any gradualism (needed for any imaginary scenario), even in the next summary (sponsored by the Academy) it is clearly declared that the views of Darwin and of his inspiring atheist were the ones that prevented further research and progress in discovery of the Revealed scenario present on earth long time before, and also promoted by that great scientist Cuvier:
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-18-t-000034.html
What other fables are going to be promoted in order to try to get rid of the clear Revelation? [ 26. March 2004, 22:41: Message edited by: Fernando Castro-Chavez ]
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Pim van Meurs
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posted 26. March 2004 22:40
Chavez: To Pin (sp) I must say that all the random scenarios imagined by the evolutionary thought require graduation and a very 10000ng time full of ceros, but the findings of the appearance of all kinds of organisms on the ocean at the same time without any graduation contradicts any fantasy, no matter how exciting it may sound.
This may be a common misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory does not say that 'graduation' has to take place. For examples there are some great examples of 'living fossils' but they hardly refute evolutionary theory and in fact are quite well understood in evolutionary terms.
Chavez: Isn’t more exciting that the full movie of the origin and the end of life has been already revealed to mankind. However, it is too bad that mankind resists it, giving their trust rather to theories that become nothing with the “next one”, Darwin, the fake embryos of H., then piltdown, then S. J. Gould, then the RNA world, or perhaps the 'lipid world', or perhaps something else tomorrow…
If you want to make this a theological argument then perhaps this forum is less suitable. As far as the Haeckel's embryos, they were not fake as much as a misrepresentation of the earlier stages, when corrected Haeckel's work still forms a major contributor to evolutionary theory and Darwinism. I am not sure what the relevance of Piltdown, Darwin, SJ Gould are in your posting, perhaps you could clarify?
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Fernando Castro-Chavez
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posted 27. March 2004 12:08
Pim:
Thanks for your comments.
The clear revelation of intelligent design (ID) goes beyond Cuvier and have a clear purpose from beginning to end (a book on the history of ID may show that).
If I mentioned that the source of inspiration of Darwin was atheism (personified in the works of Lyell) it is because the source of reference and of inspiration is vital to understand its further history. The same can be said for the “source” of inspiration of Wallace A. R. (1855. Annals and Magazine of Natural History, 2nd Series. 16:184-196).
I held Darwin and its followers responsible, not only for obstructing the progress on the research proposed by Cuvier, but obstructing also thousands of other good projects and ideas today. I.E., Nägeli was Evolutionist and he prevented the works of Mendel to become well known, until Bateson in England re-discovered the Laws of Heredity (~30 years after the death of Mendel). Bateson started promoting them boldly, together with other “breeders”. However, no “naturalists” were involved in the initial promotion of Mendel’s Laws. They dismissed to publish extensively anything about it until the pressure of the evidence was overwhelming; there is just one reference related to that:
Mendel in America: Theory and Practice, 1900-1919, by D. B. Paul and B. A. Kimmelman, 1988, U. of Pennsylvania Press:
"The dominant force at the 1902 New York Conference was Bateson; his lead paper combined a straightforward account of Mendel's laws with a discussion of their applied, and especially commercial, importance” “…breeders active in promoting Mendelism were academic biologists.” “These biologists were generally affiliated with the USDA or state agricultural colleges and experiment stations and they aimed to combine practical public interests with theoretical science.”
“In sharp contrast with naturalists…” “This point is illustrated by the diverse character of articles on Mendelism published in American journals between 1901 and 1903. The first to appear was Charles Davenport's "Mendel's Laws of Dichotomy," in the Biological Bulletin, 1901, 2: 307-310. It was quickly followed by E. B. Wilson, "Mendel's Principles of Heredity and the Maturation of the Germ-cells," Science, 1902, 16: 991-992; Walter Sutton, "On the Morphology of the Chromosome Group in Brachystola magna," Biol. Bull., 1902, 3: 24-39; W. J. Spillman, "Exceptions to Mendel's Law," Sci., 1902, 16: 709-710 and 784-796; R. A. Emerson, "Preliminary Account of Variation in Bean Hybrids," 15th Annual Report of the Nebraska Experiment Station, 1902; and Walter A. Cannon, "A Cytological Basis for Mendelian Cases," Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club, 1902. Other early accounts include Liberty Hyde Bailey, "A Discussion of Mendel's Law and its Bearings," Address before the Society for Plant Morphology and Physiology, Washington, D. C., 29 Dec. 1902, published as "Some Recent Ideas on the Evolution of Plants," Sci., 1903, 17: 441-454; Walter Sutton, "The Chromosomes in Heredity," Biol. Bull., 1902, 4: 231-251; and William Castle, "The Laws of Heredity of Galton and Mendel and some Laws Governing Race Improvement by Selection," Proceedings of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, 1903, 38: 535-548; reprinted as "Mendel's Law of Heredity," in Sci., 1903, 18: 396-406. Compare with the lack of interest expressed by the Botanical Gazette. The first mention of Mendel is a dismissive comment by the editor, John Merle Coulter, in a review of the third edition of Liberty Hyde Bailey's Plant Breeding (Botanical Gazette, 1904, 37: 471-472). The American Naturalist was also unimpressed. Other than a passing reference in a Botanical Note of 1902, there is no mention of Mendelism until 1904, and then only in Charles Davenport's book reviews. Editorial notes and articles first appear in 1907.”
Reference: http://www.mendelweb.org/MWpaul.intro.html
Letters: http://www.esp.org/foundations/genetics/classical/holdings/m/gm-let.pdf
Regarding the “lipid world” I can just explain that in my experiments, if we let the lipids loose (as in our model), that brings down the expression of more than 179 transcription/translation genes in only one tissue. The lipids did not upregulated those genes. It is like trying to walk on a floor full of oil, or to drive a car with oil on your feet.
The abuse of “evolution” has been so shameless that a dominant figure in the U.S. science got publicly very upset because some stickers were declaring that the theory of evolution was just that, a theory, but not reality. However, there is no “theory of evolution”, at best there are multiple “theories of evolution”, theories that are “self-destroying” and “self-excluding”, the ones of the others, we can include here also the prebiotic “chemo-world” of Urey-Miller-Sagan, the Bacto-Mytho, the “viral world”, etc., etc.
The abuse of “evolution” has been so shameless that eminent scientists don’t dare to call with that name the gene duplication in yeast (Kellis M, Birren BW, Lander ES. Proof and evolutionary analysis of ancient genome duplication in the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Nature. 2004 Mar 7), and then to compare it with the cancerous cells! (In certain types of cancer… cells have twice as many chromosomes as they should, and there are many other diseases linked to gene dosage and misregulation. “These processes are not much different from what happened in yeast”, Kellis said.)
Does the yeast then become something else than yeast? Does bacteria become something else than bacteria after centuries of dealing with them in the Lab? Are duplications and diseases (virus, cancer, etc.) the best examples for the theories of “evolution”? [ 04. April 2004, 01:08: Message edited by: Fernando Castro-Chavez ]
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nobody
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posted 27. March 2004 12:32
Good morning Fernando Castro-Chavez,
Thank you for that info about Mendel. I was not aware of those important facts.
You say:
quote: The abuse of “evolution” has been so shameless that a dominant figure in the U.S. science got publicly very upset because some stickers were declaring that the theory of evolution was just that, a theory, but not reality.
That is exactly why I only refer to it as the evolution hypothesis. Calling it a theory gives "evolution" way too much credit. I'd like to know the name of this scientist who got so upset defending his religion.
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Pim van Meurs
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posted 27. March 2004 12:49
Aha, I see, you are not really addressing scientific issues here but rather what you see as historical or philosophical issues such as atheism and Darwin?
Chavez: Regarding the “lipid world” I can just explain that in my experiments, if we let the lipids loose (as in our model), that brings down the expression of more than 179 transcription/translation genes in only one tissue. The lipids did not upregulated those genes. It is like trying to walk on a floor full of oil, or to drive a car with oil on your feet.
An interesting strawman version of the lipid world indeed. It may be helpful if you follow the links to the 'lipid world' and see how scientists have addressed these issues in a far more reasonable manner.
Chavez: The abuse of “evolution” has been so shameless that a dominant figure in the U.S. science got publicly very upset because some stickers were declaring that the theory of evolution was just that, a theory, but not reality. However, there is no “theory of evolution”, at best there are multiple “theories of evolution”, theories that are “self-destroying” and “self-excluding”, the ones of the others, we can include here also the prebiotic “chemo-world” of Urey-Miller-Sagan, the Bacto-Mytho, the “viral world”, etc., etc.
Seems that evolutionary theory is indeed a vibrant example of scientific activity although I have yet to encounter examples given by you. Of course contrary to your opinion these theories are not self excluding or destroying but are in fact building on previous ideas providing for missing elements and given us more and more insight into possible origins of life and evolutionary pathways. Is that 'abuse'?
Chavez: The abuse of “evolution” has been so shameless that eminent scientists don’t dare to call with that name the gene duplication in yeast (Kellis M, Birren BW, Lander ES. Proof and evolutionary analysis of ancient genome duplication in the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Nature. 2004 Mar 7), and then to compare it with the cancerous cells! (In certain types of cancer… cells have twice as many chromosomes as they should, and there are many other diseases linked to gene dosage and misregulation. “These processes are not much different from what happened in yeast”, Kellis said.)
I fail to see your point. Could you explain in some detail what you are trying to say here? Gene duplication has indeed been shown to not only be able to explain the statistical nature of RNA and DNA networks but also is supported by much of the evidence.
From that paper you referenced
quote:
WGD followed by massive gene loss and gene specialization offers an important path for large-scale evolutionary innovation. Compared to multiple independent duplications and divergence of individual genes or segments, WGD may be more efficient and may offer great opportunities for coordinated evolution. Although organisms clearly can undergo WGD resulting in complete polyploids (as evidenced by existing tetraploid species of plants and animals 34–37), it has been unclear whether WGD can then be followed by massive genome reshaping to yield diploids with expanded gene content. Our analysis of K. waltii definitively proves that S. cerevisiae is the descendant of an ancient WGD, as originally proposed by Wolfe 3 on the basis of subtle genomic patterns. Comparison with K. waltii allows rigorous study of the many evolutionary innovations that arose in this dramatic event. We note that a similar analysis of the Ashbya gossypii genome has been carried out (P. Philippsen, personal communication). The results here suggest that it may also be fruitful to search for similar genomic signatures of ancient WGD in other organisms 38–40. It will be interesting to see just how far such distant echoes of genomic upheaval may be traced.
You may want to read the rest of that thread since it provides some links to the works of Fontana and others.
As far as Nageli and Mendel, the history is hardly as black and white as Chavez paints it.
quote:
Between 1866-1873 Mendel corresponded with Carl Nägeli (1817-91), Professor of Botany at the University of Munich and an authority in plant hybrids. Nägeli was convinced that hybrids were generally unstable and he could not agree with Mendel's theory that the characters passed onto hybrids from their parents were constant. The period of Mendel's correspondence with Nägeli [i] coincides with the experiments with the Hieracium which disappointingly seemed to prove Nägeli right. Mendel's observed what he called "a peculiar behaviour of the hybrids" which he was unable to explain - i.e. that the Hieracium exhibited both sexual and a-sexual reproduction (a phenomenon known as apomixis).
link
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quote:
All these results were never published by MENDEL. They are preserved in the correspondence with C. v. NÄGELI. C.CORRENS edited and published it in 1905. Supported by C. v. NÄGELI MENDEL did also work on Hieracium hybrids, especially such of the subgenera Pilosella and Archhieracium. The choice of these objects proved to be rather unhappy, since Hieracium is a genus that poses difficulties to botanists even today. Often stable transitional forms occur, whose existence MENDEL could not explain. Besides the technical problems (flowers of composites are never easy to work with) were his experiments disturbed by a phenomenon that was not understood until much later: The seeds of several species develop directly from the mother cells of the embryo sac or a cell of the surrounding tissue, meiosis does not take place. Such a way of seed development is called agamospermy. The mother plant develops seeds without being pollinated. These seeds behave like layers of the mother plant. Additionally species exist, where part of the seeds develop from agamospermy and part from pollinated egg cells. This leads to completely confusing ratios, because the preconditions upon which MENDEL's laws are founded are not fulfilled any more.
Link
Read more and Mendel Web
What was Nageli 'guilty of'?
quote:
Nägeli also offered Mendel "fatal" advice: to continue his investigations using the hawkweed (Hieracium), a plant belonging to the family of the asters. It was only later that botanists discovered these plants’ asexual reproduction, which meant that experiments in hybridisation with hawkweed were bound to be inconclusive, since the genetic information is transferred exclusively via the maternal
link
And that is as they say 'the rest of the story" Was it surpressed or merely forgotten? [ 27. March 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]
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Pim van Meurs
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posted 27. March 2004 20:22
A good webpage on Haeckel FIGURE 1. Haeckel's 1874 version of vertebrate embryonic development. The top row shows an early stage common to all groups, the second row shows a middle stage of development, and the bottom row shows a late stage embryo. Groups from left to right are: fish, salamander, turtle, chicken, pig, cow, rabbit, and human. (Adapted from Gilbert, 1997.)
 FIGURE 3. Photographs of a fish, amphibian, reptile, mammal, and bird embryo at the "phylotypic" stage. Photographs courtesy of M. Richardson.
Richardson has written quite extensively on this topic.
A particular paper of interest may be: Haeckel's ABC of evolution and development Biol. Rev. (2002), 77, pp. 495-528
quote: ABSTRACT One of the central, unresolved controversies in biology concerns the distribution of primitive versus advanced characters at different stages of vertebrate development. This controversy has major implications for evolutionary developmental biology and phylogenetics. Ernst Haeckel addressed the issue with his Biogenetic Law, and his embryo drawings functioned as supporting data. We re-examine Haeckel's work and its significance for modern efforts to develop a rigorous comparative framework for developmental studies. Haeckel's comparative embryology was evolutionary but non-quantitative. It was based on developmental sequences, and treated heterochrony as a sequence change. It is not always clear whether he believed in recapitulation of single characters or entire stages. The Biogenetic Law is supported by several recent studies if applied to single characters only. Haeckel's important but overlooked alphabetical analogy of evolution and development is an advance on von Baer. Haeckel recognized the evolutionary diversity in early embryonic stages, in line with modern thinking. He did not necessarily advocate the strict form of recapitulation and terminal addition commonly attributed to him. Haeckel's much-criticized embryo drawings are important as phylogenetic hypotheses, teaching aids, and evidence for evolution. While some criticisms of the drawings are legitimate, others are more tendentious. In opposition to Haeckel and his embryo drawings, Wilhelm His made major advances towards developing a quantitative comparative embryology based on morphometrics. Unfortunately His's work in this area is largely forgotten. Despite his obvious flaws, Haeckel can be seen as the father of a sequence-based phylogenetic embryology.
[ 27. March 2004, 20:22: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]
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Fernando Castro-Chavez
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posted 29. March 2004 21:34
Pim:
Thanks very much for the comparative picutres.
As the abstract acknowledges: that comparison demonstrates Haeckel's obvious flaws, and the morphometrics of W. H. are in opposition to Haeckel and his embryo drawings, those morphometrics by themselves stand as legitimate criticisms against those embryo drawings.
We can also see that Haeckel did his drawings based on his "evolutionary beliefs", because his "comparative embryology was evolutionary", but not based in what he was actually observing. An uncertain belief is mentioned in connection to his works.
Haeckel is an example of intentional flaws that presented themselves as the "scientific truth" to support evolution.
Presently I am interpreting my research results with Intelligent Design in mind. [ 30. March 2004, 22:23: Message edited by: Fernando Castro-Chavez ]
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Mesk
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posted 01. April 2004 01:18
quote: Fernando: The genomic analysis of human populations that we have now presents a history that many reject, a short antiquity for mankind with a further bottleneck.
As I said in my earlier post, the results from recent large-scale genetic analyses of human populations are utterly inconsistent with the sort of "short antiquity" (i.e. 6,000 - 10,000 years) demanded by YEC. Your claims to the contrary are totally false. If you can show me one single study published in a peer-reviewed journal which indicates that all living humans share a common ancestor who lived less than ten thousand years ago, I'll let your claim slide - but as long as you keep posting totally unsupported remarks like the one above, I'll keep pointing out that the research literature unambiguously proves you wrong.
Mesk.
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nobody
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posted 01. April 2004 12:17
Good morning Mesk,
That depends on how reliable genetic clocks actually are:
"Clocks tick at different rates in different lineages and at different times. And new work on the biology of mitochondria suggests that their evolution may be more complicated than researchers had suspected." (Strauss, Evelyn; "Can Mitochondrial Clocks Keep Time?" Science, 283:1435, 1999.)
What I have noticed over the years is that evolutionists sometimes extrapolate wildly without gathering enough information.
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Fernando Castro-Chavez
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posted 01. April 2004 20:23
Nobody and Mesk:
Trends Genet. 2004 Feb;20(2):80-6. Reading the entrails of chickens: molecular timescales of evolution and the illusion of precision. Graur D, Martin W. "Because the appearance of accuracy has an irresistible allure, non-specialists frequently treat these estimates as factual. In this article, we show that all of these divergence-time estimates were generated through improper methodology on the basis of a single calibration point that has been unjustly denuded of error. The illusion of precision was achieved mainly through the conversion of statistical estimates (which by definition possess standard errors, ranges and confidence intervals) into errorless numbers. By employing such techniques successively, the time estimates of even the most ancient divergence events were made to look deceptively precise."
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Pim:
J Exp Zoolog Part B Mol Dev Evol. 2004 Jan 15;302(1):69-91. Evo-devo aspects of classical and molecular data in a historical perspective. Sander K, Schmidt-Ott U. "Darwin and his "continental apostle" Haeckel put the striking similarity between early vertebrate embryos in an evolutionary context. Haeckel's partly illicit generalizations discredited evolutionary thinking among early experimental embryologists who moreover noted riddles incompatible..."
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I also want to keep a set of articles that show how the concept of "Speciation" is equally an illusion, rather representing how great is our human ignorance in the knowledge of living organisms. I. E., as when the same fungi were classified under different species, depending on its stage, or when the same organism is classified under two specie names, or when a sterile individual is considered a product of "Speciation"... I will be adding those, and some references already posted here to:
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-18-t-000034.html
I have already documented in that place the evolutionary denial of the grant requested by Bateson to verify the Laws of Mendel in animals and in plants. Bateson even wrote a full book in defense to Mendel's work but was equally rejected, it was not until he went to U.S. that the USDA became his strongest help to promote the Laws of Mendel (as posted previously), rejected and dismissed by evolution.
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