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Author
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Topic: the problem with snowflakes
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David
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Member # 1223
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posted 25. March 2004 12:48
INTRO: In his book "The Wedge of Truth", Dr. Phillip Johnson describes the meaning of the term "information" as "a message that conveys meaning, such as a book of instructions". He asserts that genetic material conveys information in that "the arrangement of these DNA chemical letters, like the arrangement of the letters on this page, is not determined by either chance or the laws of chemistry. Chance produces only random disorder, and chemical laws produce the same thing over and over again. If the chemistry of DNA controlled the order of the letters there would be no message, or at least no message with any information content higher than the simple order that is present in the chemical laws."
Then, he suggests that "the leap from chemistry to biology requires something in addition to chance and law, because of the fundamentally informational character of life. Law produces the same simple pattern over and over again -- highly ordered repetitive sequences, like crystals or snowflakes. Chance produces disordered, unspecified sequences that show no consistent patterns. No combination of chance and law can do the job because genetic information is both highly specified and random, (i.e. not repetitive)."
With regard to snowflakes, they are in fact crystals...single crystals formed from water vapor condensed directly to the solid state according to well-understood physical laws. Snowflakes can be recognized by their obvious 6-fold symmetry, which is a direct result of the shape of the water molecule. Yet remarkably, as far as we can tell, no two snowflakes are exactly the same, that is, they are not repetitive, and they are quite random in their morphology, within the parameters set by the governing symmetry. I note that the DNA double helix is similarly constrained by the rules of symmetry for this class of molecule.
I submit that snowflakes are highly specific, yet non-repeating, incredibly complex structures that meet Johnson's criteria for carrying information beyond the simple physical laws under which they formed. Yet, he categorizes them as reflecting only the simple regularity of the physical laws of chemistry and physics.
Question: What distinguishes snowflakes from genes such that, according to Johnson, snowflakes reflect only the physical laws governing their formation, while genes reflect a message that transcends the physical laws of chemical bonding in biomolecules?
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Scott
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Member # 1222
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posted 25. March 2004 21:41
Question: What distinguishes snowflakes from genes such that, according to Johnson, snowflakes reflect only the physical laws governing their formation, while genes reflect a message that transcends the physical laws of chemical bonding in biomolecules?
Doesn't your question answer itself?
"...snowflakes reflect only the physical laws governing their formation..."
Do you disagree with this, or would you maintain that DNA sequences are also merely a reflection of some physical law that governs their formation?
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nobody
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Member # 145
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posted 26. March 2004 12:30
Snowflakes contain no information.
DNA contains massive amounts of information. You can check with the Human Genome Project scientists if you dispute that fact.
This topic has been covered extensively over at ARN. Do a quick search and you will probably find out more than you ever wanted to know about snowflakes.
http://www.arn.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php
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Moderator
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Member # 1
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posted 26. March 2004 12:55
This thread has no promise. It was put forth as a critique not a brainstorm.
It has been moderated.
[ 26. March 2004, 12:57: Message edited by: Moderator ]
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