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» ISCID Forums   » General   » Brainstorms   » Phillip L. Engle: New Evolutionary Theory: The End of Ideology (Page 11)

 
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Author Topic: Phillip L. Engle: New Evolutionary Theory: The End of Ideology
Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 15. May 2004 20:28      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Rex for your clarification.

Scott: Only if one wishes to be obtuse in the face of all evidence to the contrary. "Mammal-Like Reptiles" is a complete misnomer. Now you know better.

You seem to be focusing on trivialities, mammal-like reptiles is a common term. You should not let technicalities distract you from the message which is obvious namely that the fossil series shows a remarkable transition from 'reptile-like' to more mammal like organisms, showing in intricate detail how the jaw bones became the bones of the inner ear.

It's interesting to note that Scott does not object to the beautiful transitional series, merely objects to nomenclature. Let it be so. I'd rather focus on these beautiful transitional fossils showing in exquisite detail the transition between more reptile like to more mammal like fossils.

Some background information as to the nomenclature

quote:

As previously stated, a succession of transitional fossils exists that link reptiles (Class Reptilia) and mammals (Class Mammalia).

From Cufey's website or

quote:

The most important of the Karoo reptiles were undoubtedly the mammal-like reptiles or Therapsida.

Link

and the early mammal like reptiles

quote:

Diagram showing the relationships between the various mammal-like reptiles. Mammal-like reptiles did not survive beyond the end of the Triassic period, but one group, the Cynodontia, gave rise to the first mammals at the end of the Triassic, about 200 million years ago.

Permian Period--The rise of mammal-like reptiles

I think it is important not to be confused by the changing nomenclature but rather to focus on the transitional fossils presented.

From the ARN thread

quote:

These pre-mammalian groups of synapsids have at times been called "mammal-like reptiles". This term is now discouraged because although many had characteristics in common with mammals, none of them were actually reptiles.

or from Synapsida: Systematics

quote:

Synapsid classification has undergone tremendous change in recent years; most of the traditional groupings have been discovered to be paraphyletic. To represent this, we have used multiple lines drawn to paraphyletic groups in the cladogram above. Except for the Mammalia, all synapsid groups are extinct.

Current hypotheses about early synapsid diversification suggest that "pelycosaurs" are the basal-most synapsids, and are certainly paraphyletic. This group includes familiar "sail-back" critters like Dimetrodon, but also includes a variety of lesser known early synapsids, such as the herbivorous Caseidae. All groups of pelycosaurs went extinct by the end of the Permian. The remaining groups in the above cladogram constitute the Therapsida, and most of them diversified in the Permian or Triassic -- and then disappeared as the dinosaurs came to dominate the terrestrial world.

RBH stated it well on the ARN thread

quote:

I've read through this thread three times in succession now, and for the life of me I can't figure out what the issue is beyond a taxonomic (labelling, classification) confusion on some people's part. Is there something I'm missing? If so, what?

Or as KC states it

quote:

Actually, it's more sloppy terminology--a shorthand-- that's causing the confusion

ending with the relevant observation that

quote:

This is where the shorthand comes in. Both the Reptilia and Synapsida inherited the same basic jaw structure from their common ancestor, the quadroarticular structure. They also possessed at the time only one ear ossicle (bone), the stapes. Mammals, however, developed a simplified jaw structure (dentary-squamosal, from trends started in the Therapsida, with the expansion of the dentary bone in the mandible, and with two of the bones, the quadrate and articular, becoming part of the inner ear structure (the incus and the malleus bones, respectively). In fact, two defining characteristics of mammals are the single dentary bone forming the mandible, and the 3 ear ossicles. Reptiles have retained the quadroarticular jaw structure, and still possess only one ear ossicle (the stapes). So that is why biologists use the terms 'mammalian' and 'reptilian' jaw structures

I hope this helps since these are historically somewhat confusing topics but once one understands the historical evolution of the synapsids clade, I believe things may become clearer. Either way the fossil series shows a remarkable and exquisite transition between what commonly is refered to as 'reptilian features' to 'mammalian features'.

Some various relevant references

Ghost lineages and "mammalness": Assessing the temporal pattern of character acquisition in the Synapsida. Sidor-Christian-A; Hopson-James-A Paleobiology-. Spring, 1998; 24 (2) 254-273..
quote:

The origin of mammals has been characterized as a gradual process, a claim based primarily on a well-preserved series of extinct nonmammalian synapsids ("mammal-like reptiles") that span some 200 million years. In contrast to the origin of many other higher taxa, the origin of mammals from within cynodont-grade therapsids is not considered to coincide with a major morphological change, but rather to be simply the culmination of a series of more and more mammal-like transitional forms. To test these assertions, an asymmetrical cladogram extending from primitive "pelycosaurs" to morganucodontid
mammaliaforms was created. Three different methodologies were then used to compare the amount of morphological change between nodes on
this cladogram with the minimum missing time interval between each node, as inferred from sister taxon-based ghost lineages. In general,
a statistically significant positive relationship was found,indicating that greater numbers of derived features tend to be correlated with longer ghost lineages. A significant correlation between the number of
accumulated apomorphies and branching events was also found. Although the rate of character change was variable, in no case was a long ghost
lineage associated with few apomorphies. These correlations are consistent with the hypothesis that rapid accumulation of derived features occurred relatively infrequently within the synapsid lineage leading toward mammals and that gradual character evolution predominated.

Hopson J. A. and H. R. Barghusen. 1986. An analysis of therapsid relationships. Pages 83-106 in The Ecology and Biology of Mammal-like
Reptiles (P. D. M. Nicholas Hotton III, J. J. Roth, and E. C. Roth, eds.) Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington.

In other words 'mammal like reptiles' is a term which references those members of Synapsida which are non-mammalia but which contain as a subclass mammalia. So to avoid further confusion perhaps it is better to state that these intermediate fossils show a transition from the basal Synapsida to the more mammalian like relative of the Mammalia.

http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/synapsida.html

http://msc.bhsu.edu/biology/bsmith/mammlec2.html

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Synapsida&contgroup=Amniota

http://tolweb.org/accessory/Synapsid_Classification_&_Apomorphies?acc_id=466

quote:

Evolutionary Origins of the Mammalian Middle and Inner Ears
Homology of the mammalian middle-ear ossicles with accessory jaw bones on the mandible of other vertebrates is a classic example of comparative anatomy and vertebrate evolution. Previously it was not clear how the accessory mandibular (postdentary) bones of cynodonts (close relatives to mammals) could migrate from the mandible to the cranium in mammals. Luo and Crompton (1994) show that the phylogenetic transformations of several features of the quadrate (incus) made it possible for the postdentary bones to establish new sites of attachment to the cranium. Through the cynodont–mammal transition, the simple changes in the quadrate and its surrounding structures have allowed a fundamental reorganization of the basicranium while a presumably functional tympanum was maintained in the mandible. New data from Luo and Crompton (1994) support Allin and Hopson’s (1992) hypothesis on the postdentary origin of the mammalian tympanic membrane.


Link

See also Cynodont

quote:

Cynodonta contains the most mammal-like of the non-mammalian therapsids, which are sometimes termed 'mammal-like reptiles'. The most derived cynodonts are found within a taxon called Eucynodontia, which also contains the members of Mammalia.

Terapsida: Overview

quote:

The Therapsida, the basal members of which are traditionally called "mammal-like reptiles" or "paramammals," are the advanced synapsids, and include the mammals. The traditional Linnaean classification groups the therapsids into several suborders - usually Phthinosuchia/Biarmosuchia, Dinocephalia, Anomodontia, and Theriodontia, this last often subdivided. A suggested cladistic tree is shown in the Cladogram

Allin, E. F., and J. A. Hopson. 1992. Evolution of the auditory system in Synapsida (“mammal-like reptiles” and primitive mammals) as seen in the fossil record. Pp. 587–614 in The Evolutionary Biology of Hearing (D. B. Webster, R. R. Fay, and A. N. Popper, eds.). Springer–Verlag, New York.

Hopson, J. A., and H. R. Barghusen. 1986. An analysis of therapsid relationships. Pp. 83–106 in The Ecology and Biology of Mammal-like Reptiles (N. Hotton III, P. D. MacLean, J. J. Roth, and E. C. Roth, eds.). Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, D. C.

Mammal like reptiles while confusing is a commonly accepted term. Understanding its exact meaning is quite confusing and my usage of terminology did not make things simpler. I apologize for the confusion and hope we can now focus on the beautiful intermediate fossil series.

Scott: novisad is talking about "basic body plans" and you are talking about inner ear bones. Seems to be a bit of a disconnect there as well.

You mean he was refering to Phylum level evolution?

Quite confusing I must admit

[ 15. May 2004, 20:43: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Scott
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quote:
There isn't a smooth transition between Class Reptilia and Class Mammalia because Class Mammalia is not a monophyletic subset of Class Reptilia.
Rex,
What is wrong with claiming that Class Mammalia is not a subset of Class Reptilia, period. Monophyletic or not has no bearing on it. That is certainly the claim I am putting forward, a claim which seems to be supported by the cladgram which Pim provided.

quote:
What the transitional fossils do show is a transition between earlier synapsids, which morphologically were reptile-like, and mammals.
Then why don't we call them "reptile-like mammals" [Wink] ?

I disagree with the claim that morphologically the synapsids are reptile-like. It is their lack of a reptile-like morphology which leads to their placement in a clade which is not within the Reptilia.

regards

[ 16. May 2004, 00:10: Message edited by: Scott ]

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nosivad
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Icon 1 posted 16. May 2004 06:48      Profile for nosivad   Email nosivad   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pim
I have already compared the Darwinian model with my own hypotheses in several papers and the Manifesto. I see no reason to repeat myself, especially since much of that material is a touch of the mouse away right here on brainstorms. However, it is obvious that the Darwinian scheme can predict absolutely nothing because nobody has the vaguest notion of what "natural selection", that evolutionary elixir, is going to do next. An hypothesis with no predictive value is meaningless. As for predictions, I predict, based on the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis, that fossil marsupial bats will one day be discovered. After all, we already have marsupial wolves, squirrels, saber-toothed cats, moles and mice. I also predict that Darwinism, like Lamarckism, Phlogiston and the Ether, will one day be nothing but a foot note. Now what are Pim's predictions and on what are they based?

"The struggle for existence and natural selection are not progessive agencies, but being, on the contrary, conservative, maintain the standard."

Leo Berg Nomogenesis page 406

[ 16. May 2004, 12:10: Message edited by: nosivad ]

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nosivad
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Icon 1 posted 16. May 2004 12:08      Profile for nosivad   Email nosivad   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
oops, I forgot marsupial bears and the Jerbil, which is the placental equivelent of the kangaroo!
The more I think about it the more convinced I become that evolution has been prescribed as I suggested in my Ontogeny paper. Science is fun!

[ 16. May 2004, 12:14: Message edited by: nosivad ]

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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 16. May 2004 12:38      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting that when I ask Nosivad for a comparison of his ideas with Darwinism, he remains silent other than refering to some of his papers. No details make me wonder what exactly has been compared.

Let's thus explore Darwinian theory a bit further especially natural selection. Natural selection has been studied and observed in nature. One of the most extensive collections of research that I am aware of is found in Endler's "Natural selection in the wild" which in exquisite detail explores natural selection evidence found in nature. But there are some well known examples involving the "Peppered moth" as well as guppies. Another webpage mentions additional sources.

Strength and tempo of directional selection in the wild (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, Vol. 98, Issue 16, 9157-9160, July 31, 2001) - This article documents 993 measurements of directional selection in the wild. The authors have provided a database of instances of natural selection in the wild, as reported in Kingsolver et al (2001) The American Naturalist 157(3): 245-261

and

"Adaptive Genetic Variation in the Wild" (1999, published by Oxford University Press; Call Number: QH401 .A395 2000 ; ISBN: 019512183X) by Timothy A. Mousseau (Editor), Barry Sinervo (Editor), John A. Endler is also recommended.

"Selection in Natural Populations" by Jeffry B. Mitton.(1997, published by Oxford University Press, Call Number: QH371 .M68 1997 ; ISBN: 019506352X)

So it should be obvious that Darwinian mechanisms have been extensively studied in science, explaining why Darwinian theory is well founded.
In fact natural selection can be quite predictable, what is less predictable is of course the available variation.

This page on guppies shows some predictions. THe same can be found here when discussing Grant's extensive work on finches in the Galapagos.

P. R. Grant and B. R . Grant. 1995. Predicting microevolutionary responses to directional selection on heritable variation. Evolution 49: 241-251.

Contrary to Nosivad's statement, modern science has presented various examples of predictions based on natural selection. In addition there are countless examples of potential falsifications of evolutionary theory, it's just that the evidence does seem to end up supporting it which makes it such a viable theory. Can Nosivad present us with some details as to the predictions based on his ideas?

King, R. B. 1993. Color pattern variation in Lake Erie water snakes: prediction and measurement of natural selection. Evolution 47:1819-1833.

Mercury selection of allozymes in marine organisms: Prediction and verification in nature
Eviatar Nevo, Rachel Ben-Shlomo, and Batia Lavie
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1984 February; 81 (4): 1258–1259

Additionally male-female sex ratios can be understood in Darwinian terms.

Marsupial and placental mammal evolution is indeed a fascinating topic and science has already uncovered a fascinating amount of data. If Nosivad in some detail can compare his ideas with those found in the scientific literature on marsupials then we may be able to compare his ideas. Similar common ancestry, similar environmental pressures... Makes sense to me.

If evolution is prescribed (was it not Conway Morris who made this suggestion), can Nosivad explain what happened to the placental kangaroo?

Scott :I disagree with the claim that morphologically the synapsids are reptile-like. It is their lack of a reptile-like morphology which leads to their placement in a clade which is not within the Reptilia.

And yet countless scientists seem to have reached a contrary position based on their extensive study of morphology.

Let me quote

quote:

"Mammal-like reptiles" (poo poo on said terminology [Smile] ) got their "reptilian" traits from the same place we did, the birds did, the dinosaurs did, etc., that is, from the common ancestor of all amniotes. These traits are apamorphies of the Amniota, and thus are symplesiomorphies for clades derived from Amniota. Thus, the traits which caused scientists to group "mammal-like reptiles" as members of Reptilia are not useful for determining phlyogenetic relationships, since all primitive amniotes should share them, regardless of where their clades were "going" evolutionarily. What we need are synapomorphies (derived traits), and "mammal-like reptiles" share more derived traits with mammals than they do with Reptilia (sensu Gauthier et omnia cladistica(?)). Hence they are members of the Synapsida, the sister stem to Sauropsida (upon which Reptilia resides), and which includes the
Mammals.

So all amniotes did indeed descend from an animal with "reptilian traits", but the Reptilia, as defined today, includes only some of these animals, based on a different group of derived states which unit the Diapsids and the Anapsids (including the turtles), if I am not mistaken.
Recall, however, that a clade is neither defined by it's constituant taxa, nor by the characteristics they posses (although it can be defined by shared derived characters, this is potentially destabilizing, and should be discouraged (Holtz 1996, and the references therein)). A Clade is defined as the most recent common ancestor of two (is it always two? I need to read up a little more...) animals and all of it's decendants (a node-based clade), or all animals more closely related to one taxon than to another.
So, while they look like "reptiles" as we know them today, the "mammal-like reptiles" are a group of amniotes which exhibit some plesiomorphic characters, but are more closley related to us than they are to any modern "reptile" or "bird" youcare to mention

Link

Also

quote:

"Mammal-like reptile" is a pretty loose term once commonly used for a broad series of paraphyletic grades of non-mammalian Synapsida.
Synapsids are one of the two main clades of the Amniota.

According to the current cladistic definition of "Reptilia", synapsids are excluded. Thus, we mammals arguably aren't really descendants of
"reptiles" after all, [that is, if "reptile" is to be based on the taxon "Reptilia" , which now does include birds, however]:

It's important to understand the history of these terminology.

or
quote:

The Therapsida, the basal members of which are traditionally called "mammal-like reptiles" or "paramammals," are the advanced synapsids, and include the mammals. The traditional Linnaean classification groups the therapsids into several suborders - usually Phthinosuchia/Biarmosuchia, Dinocephalia, Anomodontia, and Theriodontia, this last often subdivided. A suggested cladistic tree is shown in the Cladogram.

Source

Cladistics can be fun.

Back to Nosivad's Ontogeny paper

I found the origin of some of the confusion

quote:

These considerations cast a whole new perspective on what has been called convergent evolution. The morphological similarities that
exist, especially in the skeletal systems, between placental wolves and bears and their marsupial counterparts, to my mind, defy any
explanation based on the accidental evolution of these similarities through chance events.

Indeed, based on purely chance evolution there would be no viable explanation but Davison forgets that evolution is not chance alone, it is pre-existing information/variation AND selection.

Thus when Davison asks "One is compelled to ask -- What is the source of the already existing
likeness?"

The answer seems obvious: Their common ancestry.

Davison repeats his erroneous claims about Darwinism in various places:

quote:

Nevertheless, the Darwinians continue to insist that evolution is the result only of chance events.

A statement which goes contrary to any recognizable version of Darwinian theory.

quote:

Stephen J. Gould has recently compared evolution to a drunk reeling back and forth between the
bar room wall and the gutter (Gould 1996 page 149).

It is important to understand what Gould was arguing. In this case Gould was showing how a purely random walk would lead to complexity to increase due to the existence of a wall at the lower level of complexity. One should of course not confuse this simplified example with Gould's view on evolutionary theory.

See for more information the excellent resources on the web

MORE REVIEWS OF BOOKS ABOUT SCIENCE

or

quote:

Gould's second main point is that "evolutionary progress" is a bias of human-centric observers. Gould brings up the Drunkard's Walk to illustrate that there is no progress in a statistically random set.

Link

or

quote:

Gould argues that, even if there were empirical evidence for a large-scale trend, that does not imply that there is a driving force behind the trend [16, 17]. Gould argues that evolution is performing a random walk in complexity space, but there is a constraint on the minimum level of complexity. When the complexity of an organism drops below a certain level (e.g., the level of prokaryotes), it can no longer live. Gould’s metaphor is that evolution is a drunkard’s random walk, but with a wall in the way (i.e., a bounded diffusion process). This wall of minimum complexity causes random drift towards higher complexity. This random drift does not involve any active selection for complexity; there is no push or drive towards increased complexity.

Link

[ 16. May 2004, 13:14: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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nosivad
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Stephen J. Gould, with the possible exception of Richard Dawkins, has done more to inhibit progress in the understanding of evolution than any other person, including Darwin himself. His statements speak volumes about his ideology and require no interpretation by Pim anymore than do the published views of anyone else. Words have meaning.
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Pim van Meurs
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Icon 1 posted 16. May 2004 14:56      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nosivad: Stephen J. Gould, with the possible exception of Richard Dawkins, has done more to inhibit progress in the understanding of evolution than any other person, including Darwin himself. His statements speak volumes about his ideology and require no interpretation by Pim anymore than do the published views of anyone else. Words have meaning.

Indeed they do and in proper context Gould's words seem to have a different meaning than what Nosivad seems to suggest. Confusing Darwinian evolution with chance alone is a common error and I am more than happy to correct such a view. Darwin, Gould, Dawkins and others who have championed the theory of evolution have contributed in very important manners to our understanding of the world around us. But of course there are hundreds nay thousands of other less known contributors who have helped expand our understanding of the world around us strengthening and modifying the theory of evolution.

So now that I have established that there are predictions based on the Darwinian theory of evolution, perhaps it's time to compare them to Nosivad's predictions. Especially relevant is that Nosivad's papers seem to address but a strawman of evolutionary theory, namely one based on chance alone.

Relevant links

Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution

Evolution and chance

Gould on chance and evolution

quote:

Q: How can chance mutations result in adaptations that seem to be purposefully designed?

A: It's a common phrase that natural selection is chance and necessity. It goes back to the title of a book by the great French biologist Jacques Monod. But it's not really correct, because the chance part is not natural selection. Natural selection is actually a locally deterministic force.

If you want to say the Darwinian evolution has a component of chance, and a component of local necessity, that's quite accurate. But the basic argument goes like this: Because natural selection doesn't make anything, natural selection is an eliminative force. Natural selection can only differentially preserve certain variations in a spectrum of variation within a species. Now some other process produces that variation; ultimately it's mutation. And mutation is spread around through recombination and sexual organisms.

Link

A recent paper by Adami on Influence of Chance, History and Adaptation on Digital Evolution describes it very well

quote:

One of the central tenets of standard evolutionary theory is that characteristics
of evolved populations can be explained by the process of adaptation, and thus that phenotypic differences, for the most part, have an adaptive value. That all of biological diversity is due to adaptation has been challenged in modern expositions of Darwinian theory. Kimura [4], for example, proposes that there is a strong component of chance in evolution, while Gould and
Lewontin [3] stress the importance of history and contingency. Effects of chance are usually due to genetic drift and random mutations without value to the organism. History can become important if certain genetic changes
(of adaptive value in the past) constrain or promote some evolutionary outcomes over others.

Words indeed need interpretation or at least proper context to be correctly understood.

or

quote:

He (Gould) argues, correctly I think, that the process of natural selection is in itself not directional. There is nothing in it which necessarily pushes evolution towards, for example, more complex, more sophisticated, or more intelligent organisms. Evolution and adaptation in the face of changing environmental conditions, he argues, can equally be towards (roughly speaking) simpler organisms. There is no preferred direction or vector of change.

Link

More about 'bauplan' evolution

Understanding the genetic basis of morphological evolution: the role of homeotic genes in the diversification of the arthropod bauplan
ALEKSANDAR POPADIC, ARHAT ABZHANOV, DOUGLAS RUSCH and THOMAS C. KAUFMAN in Int. J. Dev. Biol. 42: 453-461 (1998)

quote:

ABSTRACT Due to the segmental organization of their body plans, arthropods can be considered
the paradigmatic modular organisms. In the past two decades, genetic studies of the homeotic
(Hox) genes in Drosophila melanogaster have provided initial insight into the molecular mechanisms that govern the establishment of segmental identity. In this review, we will address the question of the possible role of four Hox genes: labial (lab), proboscipedia (pb), Deformed (Dfd), and Sex combs reduced (Scr) in the morphological evolution of arthropods, particularly with respect to
the evolution of the head and head structures in insects. Overall, these preliminary studies illustrate the role that some of the Hox genes expressed in the insect head have played in the morphological evolution of hexapods and likely arthropods in general.



[ 16. May 2004, 17:22: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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zenheadache
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Natural selection is a poor title, because the word natural has connotations which are philosophically indefensible.

The word natural, meaning by nature, meaning without intelligent guidance is of course loaded. Natural selection starts off in the very title of its theory by assuming that nothing is guided by intelligence, and then labors to prove what has been assumed. And it does seem to me that this is how the word natural is being used.

But I have not seen where intelligence has been ruled out. If we say that it cannot be, then to say that everything is due to natural causes is something of a con game.

If the world has been designed, then every discovery we make is a discovery of a designed thing or process, and so every part of science reveals something that is designed. The problem is how do we know if it is designed or not? It does not follow that if we do not know it all is designed, that it is therefore natural.

Until we make a discovery that says things could NOT have been designed, then all claims to the contrary are premature, and that is simply the way it is.

Instead, what we have are things like unpersuasive claims of the eye's imperfection, which does nothing to move the debate in any direction.

In an alternate universe, Darwinism might be called unnatural selection, where the proponents are aware of every fact known today, but regard them as evidence of how the designer works, and as they would seem strange to us, so we would seem strange to them, and neither of us would be able to convert the other, because neither would have any set of objective facts by which to make the persuasion.

They assume a designer at work, whereas we assume none. What's the difference?

On whose side do the scales of the evidence tip? What I see from a philosophical perspective is that they are balanced perfectly and tip to no side at all.

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Icon 1 posted 16. May 2004 17:53      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Zenheadache argues that

"Natural selection starts off in the very title of its theory by assuming that nothing is guided by intelligence, and then labors to prove what has been assumed."

Actually the presumption that nothing is guided by intelligence is not an assumption but an observation and while some have misinterpreted natural selection to exclude intelligence, I would argue the opposite.

Zen: But I have not seen where intelligence has been ruled out. If we say that it cannot be, then to say that everything is due to natural causes is something of a con game.

Ignoring the ad hominem, I would simply point out that Zen may be arguing what is commonly known as a strawman, that is an argument not really proposed by proponents of Darwinian evolution and consequently knock down this argument.

One may of course work under the assumption that there is design in nature and wonder about the nature of the designer(s) but unlike natural selection, the data for such appears to be lacking. As I have shown in another thread, the evidence for natural selection has been quite extensively documented. In other words, there is no doubt that natural selection exists and plays a role.

Thus we compare evolutionary theory which proposes mechanisms which are actually observed versus an idea that life may have been designed but without much further explanation as to what/how/when.

One may on philosophical grounds object or accept such ideas but on scientific grounds all depends on a comparisson of the proposed hypotheses, falsification.

In fact I personally would argue that Darwinism does not reject design in nature (similar to Ayala and teleology in nature). I would merely point out that the teleology in nature can be explained by appealing to a designer in the form of variation and natural selection. In the end I do not believe that the issue is design in nature as much as nature of the designer.

Perhaps Zen may help me understand what he means by 'intelligence' and the claim that natural selection assumes that nothing is guided by 'intelligence'. Given the obviousness of intelligent design in our world, does this mean that Zen's 'intelligence' is perhaps transcendent to our universe?

[ 16. May 2004, 17:56: Message edited by: Pim van Meurs ]

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Pim
You are absolutely right about the existence of natural selection and also that it plays a role. Its role and its only demonstrable role is to maintain the status quo.

"The struggle for existence and natural selection are not progressive agencies, but being, on the contrary, conservative, maintain the standard."
Leo S. Berg "Nomogenesis or Evolution Determined by Law" English edition 1926 page 406

Now Pim, please inform us all how out of date that view is and how much we have learned in the last seventy-eight years that renders Berg's judgement obsolete.

[ 16. May 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: nosivad ]

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Icon 1 posted 16. May 2004 18:43      Profile for Pim van Meurs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nosivad: You are absolutely right about the existence of natural selection and also that it plays a role. Its role and its only demonstrable role is to maintain the status quo.

That appears to be a limited an somewhat erroneous interpretation of natural selection. In fact, IF and WHEN a beneficial mutation arises or IF and WHEN the environment changes, variations which infer a reproductive advantage over other mutations will spread through the population.

Natural selection only maintains the status quo if and when the fitness of the genome remains unchanged.

I am not familiar with the context of Leo's comments but it seems to me that he is arguing that natural selection by itself does not do anything. But as has been shown in experimental, theoretical and empirical data, natural selection combined with variation is a powerful mechanism for change.

We should be careful to interpret Leo's comments to support Nosivad's interpretation thereof.

It pleases me however to see Nosivad accept the concept of Natural Selection, one of the mechanisms of evolutionary theory, as real. And in fact, as I have shown, able to make real predictions contrary to Nosivad's original claim.

As far as what we have learned that contradicts Nosivad's interpretation of Leo's comment, I refer to this thread in which I have provided various relevant resources.

In other words, applying Leo's comments about a static environment to a more realistic environment makes his comments, while correct, also of quite limited relevance.

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