KBC1963
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Member # 1868
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posted 27. January 2006 22:10
I was reading back through some of the past discussions here and was particularly upset when I read this thread:
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-6-t-000300.html
specifically when I read the post by Rex Kerr where he attempts to make Dr. Dembski seem idiotic by writing the following;
“Based off of information in this description of the flagellum (found thanks to Yersinia), we see that the flagellum consists of at least:
Propeller: FliD (cap); FliC (filament); FlgL,K (joint); FlgE (hook)
Drive shaft: FlgG (joint); FlgB,C,F (main shaft); FlgH,I (bushing)
Rotor: FliF,G,M,N
Stator: MotA,MotB
Transport apparatus: FlhA,B, FliH,I,O,P,Q,R
First I will lay out an evolutionary scenario:
1. A pore duplicates in an early bacterium and becomes associated with an enzyme whose products provide a fitness advantage when transported outside the cell.
2. This pore acquires several associated subunits to regulate what is exported through it.
3. One of these associated subunits develops the ability to bind proteins with a specific export signal sequence; other proteins pick up the signal sequence. [Transport apparatus done.]
4. The bacterium acquires an outer membrane, and the pore picks up an extra layer.
5. The bacterium acquires a cell wall, and the pore picks up yet another layer. [Bushing done]
6. A new subunit adds a lining to the inside of the pore and reduces interactions between other proteins and the pore. Reducing clogging.
7. This subunit extends throughout all three layers. [Shaft done]
8. A subunit that binds proteins of other cells is added to the cap of the export system, allowing the system to inject proteins into other cells. [Cap done]
9. A buffer layer is added under the cap, making contact with other cells mechanically easier.
10. The buffer filament is added underneath the cap, making contact with other cells mechanically easier. [Filament done]
11. Motor proteins associate with the inner edge of the system, generating twitches that facilitate the mechanical rupturing of the target cell membrane.
12. The motor proteins duplicate and diverge into
structural-reinforcement and force-generating components, allowing complete rotational motion (thanks to the slipperiness of the pore-lining subunits). [Stator done]
13. The pore-lining subunits duplicate and diverge such that friction is reduced with the pore subunits that form holes in the cell wall and outer membrane. [Rotor addressed]
14. A subunit that adds a kink under the filament is generated, transforming the injection system into a functional motor. [Hook done.]
Note that we have a functional intermediate at every step that I have listed.”
I thought surely someone was going to be able to layout reasoning as to why this list would be beyond random chance to accomplish but nothing ever came which was a bit disappointing.
I would however like to see if the line of reasoning that I will lay out can be used to stop this type of reply to irreducible complexity.
In step 1
He states that "a pore duplicates" which could only be a Hox gene duplication since it would be a copy of the DNA's information on how to form a pore, now from my understanding of such a duplication the new pore would only do what the pore it was a copy of would do. He then states that the new pore "becomes associated with an
enzyme". Well if this one had the same structure as an old pore then it would not do any more or less than the first one did and why wouldn't all the pores do likewise and further I wonder where this enzyme comes from that has products providing a fitness advantage that were not already being used by the cell. Do enzymes just wander through cells at random or is the environment closely controlled?
In step 2
He states "This pore acquires several associated subunits..." this begs the same question as in step 1 but now he adds "...to regulate what is exported through it" Whoa! not so fast there Rex, in order to regulate something you must have sensory input and output designed for what is to be controlled and the DNA control must already be established with sensors which in turn would be a
separate blueprinted item in itself. Now I must ask at this point how do you get a sensor and regulation coded in the DNA at the same time for a novel new function which supposedly is just mutated into existence? considering that in order to regulate you must have a fair amount of encoded parameters to act on what is being sensed
then a set of code to communicate that decision and finally that which receives the communication must be able to understand it.
This system as described is irreducibly complex in itself and no separation of it confers any advantage.
In step 3
He goes on to give "One of these associated subunits the ability to bind proteins with a specific export signal sequence". Wow! this little subunit mutates and can now magically alter other proteins so that they are tagged with an "export signal sequence", how specific of a mutation would that be to cause a subunit to be able to accurately attach highly specific structures to an existing protein? and amazingly an export signal sequence already being used by the cell. Could such a subunit have its structure mutated to such an extent and still fit in the same place? {form, fit & function}
In step 4
"The bacterium acquires an outer membrane" well this isn't a hox mutation so how do you justify a single mutation addingthe coding necessary for an entire outer membrane and the information required to place it and repair it? {maintenance can be a bear you know} and what is the advantage of this membrane?
In step 5
Well heck while we are at it lets just add "a cell wall" also needing the same things as the last and giving it what for an advantage? Can I get an amen brothers and sisters for all the lord
Random has done to clothe this wretched bacteria.
In step 6
"A new subunit adds a lining to the inside of the pore" effectively covering up the "associated subunits that have the ability to bind proteins..." from step 3, effectively eliminating the advantage it had at that stage all in order to "reduce clogging" well I suppose if it was clogged it wasnt very advantageous to have was it?
In step 7
Alining becomes a drive shaft now theres a selectable advantage right? I wonder how the pore regulates flow through the center of the shaft? guess it just a free for all port.
In step 8
"A subunit that binds proteins of other cells is added to the cap of the export system, allowing the system to inject proteins into other cells." so Rex assumes that the bacteria survived having an open port in its side long enough to mutate a cap specificly for it and hey while its mutating lets just throw in a special protein with special code so it knows what to do and when in order to inject some highly specified and also newly mutated proteins into another cell.
I must stop here as my IQ level is dropping dangerously low from this exercise and I must return to the mother ship to bath in the
healing rays. ----ok Mr. Scott beam me up---
It is clear that Rex has been thouroughly trained in evolutionary logic and can apply it to every circumstance maybe if we used that tactic we could be just as sucessfull as evolution is.
[ 27. January 2006, 22:32: Message edited by: KBC1963 ]
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