|
Author
|
Topic: The Theory of evolution in the Perspective of Thermodynamics and Experience-de Jong
|
kyle7
Member
Member # 191
|
posted 23. May 2006 21:24
One statement of the second law by Clausius is the following:
quote:
It is impossible for any system to operate in such a way that the sole result would be an energy transfer by heat from a cooler to a hotter body.
Zach, you state the following:
quote:
The total energy gradient to perform substantial work is certainly sufficient. It allows water to be pumped miles up into the atmosphere and complex water crystals to form.
Having "sufficient energy" is NOT the issue! The Second Law is concerned about the direction of processes! Please read the Clausius statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If having the need for energy was the sole issue, then the Second Law is meaningless!
2ndClss says the following:
quote:
(Sewell's misstep was applying premise (2) to open systems, which results in a conclusion that happens to be true for thermodynamic entropy, but is false in general.)
The statement of the Second Law of thermodynamics applies to OPEN systems! Is it an open system or closed system that they describe in the 2nd Law?
Again, you need a thermodynamic mechanism to allow nonspontaneous processes moving away from equilibrium!
Zach may try to confuse the issue by describing systems where the boundary conditions cause the direction of the process to be reversed, but this is misleading and dishonest.
IP: Logged
|
|
Zachriel
Member
Member # 1793
|
posted 23. May 2006 21:59
Christopher D. Beling: "The 2nd law of thermodynamics (the law of entropy increase) is not just an empirical law, but is derivable by statistics."
Thermodynamics can be seen as an *application* of information theory. Again, I invite you to compare eigenstates, the possible number of arrangements of socks in a drawer with the number of vibrational positions of atoms in a single sock thread. The arrangement of the socks is inconsequential, while the significant energy in a sock thread can be released by simple combustion.
Any valid derivation must match the empirical facts. The empirical facts of the Second Law concerns heat and energy. And the arrangement of your socks has much more to do with your personal preferences than anything else.
Also, please note that my cite to Shuffled Cards, Messy Desks, and Disorderly Dorm Rooms - Examples of Entropy Increase? Nonsense! specifically addressed the issue and has been long available on the Journal of Chemical Education published by the Division of Chemical Education of the American Chemical Society (founded 1876 now with 158,000 peers).
Christopher D. Beling: "In William's argument by analogy - there are many ways for an untidy room - but each of them is in that state we call "untidy" - each way to configure the room as "untidy" in itself is a highly improbable state - the room continues to move to a "microstate" of lower probability."
The preferred organization of your socks is not a microstate. And I don't think William meant it as an analogy.
kyle7: "Zach you don't get it! Yes when systems are out of balance (not in equilibrium) they will tend to move back toward equilibrium."
And the process of moving back to equilibrium is work and can make all manners of rearrangements of matter, including the synthesis of complex organic compounds. There is no complete theory of abiogenesis, but there is nothing in the Second Law of Thermodynamics that prohibits it.
kyle7: "Take two gases and statistically calculate the entropy for two cases: 1) where the two gases are divided -- one gas on one side and the other gas on the other side; 2) where the gases are mixed together."
Let's see. How many positions, vibrations, and bond twistings, and energy states, and velocities of say 10^23 molecules are there? Count the various eigenstates of that many microscopic objects that are in constant vibration, movement, and interaction.
kyle7: "If lambert is correct then the two entropies should be the same."
That is not correct, and not what Lambert would calculate.
kyle7: "The 'Journal of Chemical Education' should be ashamed that they allowed this paper to be published!"
Maybe you should point out the error to the American Chemical Society.
IP: Logged
|
|
Zachriel
Member
Member # 1793
|
posted 23. May 2006 22:06
kyle7: "... systems where the boundary conditions cause the direction of the process to be reversed..."
Yes!! You've got it!
There are conditions of disequilibrium whereupon the direction of an entropic process is locally reversed. It may be the turbulence of boiling soup, or it may be complex organic compounds forming in stellar nebula.
IP: Logged
|
|
Zachriel
Member
Member # 1793
|
posted 24. May 2006 08:10
Christopher D. Beling: "Zach, In the book Biological Physics Philip Nelson clearly spells out that thermodynamic entropy equates with informational entropy."
Let me expand on this a bit. This is a little like claiming that planetary orbits are the same as differential equations or that thermodynamics are the same as statistics. Rather, thermodynamics and planetary orbits can be *modeled* by certain mathematical systems. Statistics and Shannon Information Theory can be applied to the behavior of molecules. They are not "equals". (And, by the way, differential equations are not actually capable of properly modeling planetary orbits which are inherently chaotic.)
Consider a deck of playing cards. We may have preferences to what order they are in, but that can be rather arbitrary.
quote:
"I have a Queen high."
"I have that beat. I have a pair of Treys, Jack high".
"Oh well. All I have is an Ace high. I lose"
"Ah, I win again. I have all Red cards!"
To transmit the information intrinsic in the order of a shuffled deck of cards requires transmitting all 52* cards in order — maximum Shannon Information.
But that is not the same as thermodynamic entropy. The thermodynamic entropy will be found in the players, their burning cigars, and the latent entropy in their alcoholic beverages.
Consider the messy desk. A window opens and the wind blows everything off the desk. Suddenly the desk is perfectly clean — it is in a state of maximum order.
Now consider a box of socks. Take a look. All the socks are on one side. Ah ha! Order, right? Well, what if the side they are on is the bottom of the box? Suddenly, the ordering of the socks can be explained by classical physics. And it takes *work* to raise the socks above the bottom of the drawer. Odd how something as simple as gravity can impose order.
The number of valid arrangements of socks in a drawer may be modeled with information theory, but that doesn't make it significant thermodynamically. The entropy is of a different (but analogous) sort.
--
* Actually just 51 cards, the last can be deduced, assuming a single standard playing deck.
[ 24. May 2006, 14:43: Message edited by: Zachriel ]
IP: Logged
|
|
2ndclass
Member
Member # 1979
|
posted 24. May 2006 14:25
We need an accurate statement of the 2nd Law before we can try to generalize it beyond thermodynamics. Kyle7 has given us one by Clausius, but it's a little too weak, as it allows entropy to decrease as long as something else happens, but places no constraints on the "something else."
Here's a more restrictive statement: Entropy cannot decrease without an equal or greater increase in entropy elsewhere.
This statement is true for thermodynamic entropy, but is it true in general? Let's apply it to, say, pens. I can decrease the "pen entropy" in my house by gathering up all the pens and putting them in a drawer. Can I do this without causing an corresponding increase in pen disorder elsewhere? Of course I can, so obviously the 2nd Law doesn't apply.
The 2nd Law applies to the distribution and flow of energy. Applying it to anything else without an explicit mathematical justification is asking for trouble.
IP: Logged
|
|
Melvin H. Fox
Member
Member # 1684
|
posted 24. May 2006 15:16
Zach wrote:
quote:
Rather, thermodynamics and planetary orbits can be *modeled* by certain mathematical systems. Statistics and Shannon Information Theory can be applied to the behavior of molecules. They are not "equals".
This is a very important point which I believe the rest of you are overlooking. Statistical law can’t move one molecule one nanometer. To say the synthesis of complex organic compounds must be directed because that formation is statistically unlikely only carries weight in the virtual world not the real world; at least not by itself. What empirical argument can you make to show a violation of the 2nd law?
-Mel
IP: Logged
|
|
Christopher D. Beling
Member
Member # 723
|
posted 25. May 2006 20:35
quote:
Now consider a box of socks. Take a look. All the socks are on one side. Ah ha! Order, right? Well, what if the side they are on is the bottom of the box? Suddenly, the ordering of the socks can be explained by classical physics. And it takes *work* to raise the socks above the bottom of the drawer. Odd how something as simple as gravity can impose order.
Zach, when the socks fall to the bottom of the drawer, there is some gravitational potential energy loss – where does this go to – into friction probably – into heat (right?). The temperature of some surroundings goes up slightly – this means that the configurational entropy in phonon (vibrational modes of the box containing the socks – or the air surrounding the socks) goes up, and the configurational entropy of the these surrounding materials will go up more than the lowering of entropy caused by the sock configuration getting more ordered.
An easier example is the changing of water into ice. Here the water with somewhat random molecular motions is becoming ordered into a well ordered crystalline structure of ice (right?). However what we often don’t see is that thermal energy photons that have left the water in the process. They go into a higher Shannon (photon gas configuration) microstate, and below 273 K it turns out that the Shannon entropy being gained by the universe (i.e. in the photon gas) as a result of receiving these photons into their diverse (low probability) microstates is more than the lowering of Shannon (water molecule configuration) entropy. The total universe configurational entropy goes up (probability of the combined water molecule – photon gas microstate – goes down).
Thermodyanamic entropy (which depends on temperature – because the hotter a body is the larger its effective alphabet of particle states) is a subclass of configurational entropies. Some configurational entropies are temperature dependent some are not – but they are all configurational entropies – The basic rule is that the total universe configurational entropy goes up irrespective of whether the various sub-components of that configurational entropy are temperature dependent or not. Another way of saying this is that the total probability the overal system’s microstate must always decrease (irrespective of whether one component is considered “thermodynamic” because it connects with heat – and another part – such as sock, card, DNA configuration is considered “non thermodynamic” because it does not).
Hope this makes the situation a little more clear. Chris
[ 25. May 2006, 20:43: Message edited by: Christopher D. Beling ]
IP: Logged
|
|
kyle7
Member
Member # 191
|
posted 26. May 2006 00:10
quote:
quote:
kyle7: "... systems where the boundary conditions cause the direction of the process to be reversed..."
Yes!! You've got it!
There are conditions of disequilibrium whereupon the direction of an entropic process is locally reversed. It may be the turbulence of boiling soup, or it may be complex organic compounds forming in stellar nebula.
Zach, but the boundary conditions are very limited by the physics of the larger system surrounding the system. Although, the wind has the energy to construct a snowman in a northern wintery environment, it does not happen. Why? You need to apply the energy in a fashion contrary to the normal physics of fluid flow. The normal expectation of wind and snow are snow drifts -- not snowmen. Now there are all kinds of disequilibrium conditions related to fluid flow but you don't see snowmen form like the typical kid will make. Again, the boundary conditions are of no help given what we would expect from nature.
Now some zealot crusading for the belief in the natural formation of snowmen in cities my concoct all kinds of interesting supposed boundary conditions to explain snowmen in cities filled with snow. But the problem is all the improbable boundary conditions coalescing together at just the right time to make it happen. When you include the snowmans hat, gloves, charcoal and carrot nose, you know it does not happen naturally.
The natural boundary conditions are extremely limited and don't help most entropy decreasing processes. This is why engineers are in the business of making machines. They want to control thermodynamic processes by constraining the boundary conditions enabling the controlled use of energy.
IP: Logged
|
|
Zachriel
Member
Member # 1793
|
posted 26. May 2006 10:55
Christopher D. Beling: "when the socks fall to the bottom of the drawer, there is some gravitational potential energy loss – where does this go to – into friction probably – into heat (right?). heat (right?)."
The potential energy of gravity is converted to kinetic energy. Only when the socks hit the bottom of the drawer does the energy convert into waste heat. It has little to do with the socks themselves becoming more ordered.
The more typical example is a gas being compressed by gravity. The gas becomes more ordered, but the temperature increases which is then radiated away as waste heat.
(Think in terms of the numbers of items involved. A diamond may have 10^23 atoms perfectly arranged. Twelve sorted socks does not represent order of that magnitude.)
Christopher D. Beling: "The basic rule is that the total universe configurational entropy goes up irrespective of whether the various sub-components of that configurational entropy are temperature dependent or not."
Which is why there is no reason to be found in thermodynamics that precludes abiogenesis. As long as thermonuclear reactions occur in the Sun, any local decrease in entropy on Earth is more than compensated for.
kyle7: "Now there are all kinds of disequilibrium conditions related to fluid flow but you don't see snowmen form like the typical kid will make."
Of course that has nothing to do with thermodynamics. The thermodynamic order of snowmen are found in the 10^25 atoms forming the intricate ice crytals, which represents far more order than can be conceived of by the builders of snowmen. However, the act of forming the snowman does require significant thermodynamic processes; from the formation of snowstorms, to the snowman builders themselves who expend energy to pack and raise the snow.
[ 26. May 2006, 11:00: Message edited by: Zachriel ]
IP: Logged
|
|
William DeJong
Member
Member # 1162
|
posted 26. May 2006 12:49
Zach. : "… the arrangement of your socks has much more to do with your personal preferences than anything else" (posted 23. May 2006 21:59)
Zach.: "….it's quite possible that what you consider to be splotches on the parchment are letters in a language you simply don't understand. Your understanding of any semantic meaning in the ink patterns is irrelevant to the determination of the thermodynamic properties of the parchment. Nor will learning this new language change the entropy of the parchment" . (posted 22. May 2006 19:25)
A fundamental property of reality is that objects tend to fall downward. Physical science has formalized this property using the concept of gravity. Another fundamental property of reality is that any system tends to turn into utter disorder sooner or later. Physical science has formalized this property using the concept of entropy. Reflecting on daily life experiences, scientists have found that: (1) the entropy ("disorder") of a system tends to increase, unless directed effort is taken on the system; (2) the increase of the entropy is related to the increase of the probability of the state of a system, and (3) the more improbable the state of a system is the higher its capability to represent information. Entropy thus can be viewed in several ways, by focussing on the energy flows that pass the boundaries of a system (energetic view), by focussing on the statistical probability of the state of a system (statistical view), or by focussing on the ability of a system to represent information (information view). These differences in view of one and the same concept are normal in (physical) science. For instance, the concept of "gravity" can be viewed from different angles as well. The energetic, statistical and information views of entropy do not contradict each other. On the contrary, they strengthen and enrich one another. Although entropy is related to the energy flows that pass the boundaries of a system, entropy is a different concept than the concept "energy content" of a system, and should not be confounded with that concept.
When parents argue with their children over their messy rooms, the children may object that order is a purely subjective concept and any positioning of, for instance, their socks is equal. Indeed, a preference for a certain positioning of socks is subjective, but when directed effort is taken to reach a certain positioning, it will always appear that that specific positioning is lost sooner or later if the effort to maintain the original positioning is stopped. This experience reflects a fundamental property of the world we live in, and is formalized by physical science using the concept of entropy. Entropy (disorder) always increases on the long run, unless directed effort be taken to antagonize the entropy increase. This fundamental property can not only be described in words, but also in the language of mathematics, resulting in the second law of thermodynamics (see page 3 of my paper at http://www.iscid.org/pcid/2005/4/1/dejong_everyday_experience.php )
During the last decades, great progress has been made in the field of pattern recognition. It appears possible to decided whether a piece of paper full of splotches of ink represents some code or not; and to decide whether radio noise from outer space represents a message from an intelligent sender or not. Science makes it possible to distinguish between noise and information, and between chaos and order, and makes clear that order and disorder are more than subjective constructions in the heads of parents when discussing with their children. Entropy is a concept of physical science as fundamental as gravity. It is as omnipresent as gravity, and the direction of how the entropy of a system develops in real life is clear: it will increase, unless the energy flows that pass the boundaries of the system are larger than zero, averaged over a longer period of time.
The (macro) evolutionary theory has created a virtual reality where the normal and natural direction of entropy increase is converted and where molecules can start ordering themselves, maintain that order, and expand it further and further without the supply of directed effort. In the domain of religion, flat contradiction with everyday experience and empirical science is no problem. In the domain of science, the elimination of such contradictions would contribute to the progress of science.
[ 26. May 2006, 12:51: Message edited by: William DeJong ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Zachriel
Member
Member # 1793
|
posted 26. May 2006 14:29
William DeJong: "Another fundamental property of reality is that any system tends to turn into utter disorder sooner or later."
Repeating the conflation of thermodynamic order with human notions of order does not strengthen the argument. There is no difference in thermodynamic entropy with the toys scattered about the room or neatly arranged in the toy box. The thermodynamic order is in the molecular vibrations and twisting bonds of the wood and plastic the toys are made of, and can be harnessed to turn a turbine.
You are more than welcome to calculate the eigenstates of each of the vibrating atoms and twisting bonds of each of the toys in the room to verify this fact.
IP: Logged
|
|
kyle7
Member
Member # 191
|
posted 26. May 2006 17:05
quote:
Of course that has nothing to do with thermodynamics. The thermodynamic order of snowmen are found in the 10^25 atoms forming the intricate ice crytals, which represents far more order than can be conceived of by the builders of snowmen. However, the act of forming the snowman does require significant thermodynamic processes; from the formation of snowstorms, to the snowman builders themselves who expend energy to pack and raise the snow.
Zach, Dr. Lambert and others have confused you. Thermodynamics is concerned about energy and the properties of matter. It does not matter if it is a snow flake, solid rock or any other form of matter. One central concern of the Second Law is the direction of processes. Dr. Lambert makes the following statement that is not only rediculous but shows his ignorance:
quote:
There is no spontaneous tendency in groups of macro objects to become disorderly or randomly scattered ...
If I got into my car and left my house for a hundred years, the second law would predict that when I returned my house would see some deterioration. The reason for this is that the micro world has a direct impact on the macro world. Billions and billions of molecules are bombarding the house each second. Given the thermodynamic environment around the house -- it is an open system -- energy is constantly causing degregation. The second law predicts that there is a direction in the processes that occur! This direction is not advantageous for the house given its lower entropy compared to the environment. Pipes corrode, paint peels, iron rusts, tile falls off, etc etc. All of this is related to the Second Law of Thermodynamics -- the direction of processes!
Dr Lambert does a disservice to science by taking his "religious beliefs" rooted in Naturalism and pushing them on science. Having followed his website and writings a while, he has a clear agenda. Just look at how he referenced some mathematician at the University of Washington. It was a clear attempt to discredit him. Sadly, Dr Lambert is trying to hijack thermodynamics!
IP: Logged
|
|
2ndclass
Member
Member # 1979
|
posted 26. May 2006 18:07
William: quote:
Entropy (disorder) always increases on the long run, unless directed effort be taken to antagonize the entropy increase. This fundamental property can not only be described in words, but also in the language of mathematics, resulting in the second law of thermodynamics (see page 3 of my paper at http://www.iscid.org/pcid/2005/4/1/dejong_everyday_experience.php )
The inequality on page 3 says nothing about "directed effort." How do you propose to express such a concept mathematically?
[ 26. May 2006, 18:09: Message edited by: 2ndclass ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Zachriel
Member
Member # 1793
|
posted 27. May 2006 13:07
kyle7: "If I got into my car and left my house for a hundred years, the second law would predict that when I returned my house would see some deterioration."
The wood and other components of the house would certainly deteriorate. However, they would deteriorate whether they were assembled into a house or were just a jumble. The change in entropy is primarily an aspect of the molecular bonds, with perhaps some in gravitational potential energy.
kyle7: "The reason for this is that the micro world has a direct impact on the macro world."
Of course. Thermodynamic laws are a macroscopic phenomena. They are explained statistically as a consequence of the Law of Large Numbers.
kyle7: "Billions and billions of molecules are bombarding the house each second. Given the thermodynamic environment around the house -- it is an open system -- energy is constantly causing degregation."
The bonds in the wood would eventually break anyway. The iron in the nails would eventually rust. There is always some molecular vibration and the presence of atmospheric oxygen offering a lower energy state. It might be worth noting that heat is generated in most of these transformations.
[ 27. May 2006, 13:38: Message edited by: Zachriel ]
IP: Logged
|
|
William DeJong
Member
Member # 1162
|
posted 29. May 2006 05:24
Zach: There is no difference in thermodynamic entropy with the toys scattered about the room or neatly arranged in the toy box. The thermodynamic order is in the molecular vibrations and twisting bonds of the wood and plastic the toys are made of, and can be harnessed to turn a turbine (posted 26. May 2006 14:29)
Consider a system that moves from state1 toward state2. Consider the energy flows that pass the boundaries of the system (described by the left part of the second law of thermodynamics). If no energy flows pass the boundaries of the system (or if the integral of all energy flows, divided by the temperature T, over the boundaries of the system is zero when moving from state1 toward state2), then the left term of the second law of thermodynamics is zero. Thus 0 smaller-than S2 - S1 (where S1 is the entropy of state1 of the system and S2 is the entropy of state2 of the system). Thus S1 smaller-than S2 . In other words: the entropy of a system increases in a change process where (avaraged) no energy flows pass the boundaries of the system (and thus where the energy content of the system stays unchanged, including the molecular vibrations and twisting bonds).
Conclusion: the thesis that the entropy of a system stays unchanged if its vibrations and twisting bonds stay unchanged is false.
The second law of thermodynamics makes clear that there is no conservation of entropy (see above). The non-conservation of entropy is a very uncomfortable and depressing property of the physical reality of our world. Cars break down, paint peels off, ships rust, rooms get untidy and dirty, furniture falls apart, faces sag and become ugly, clothes wear out and tear, houses and factories go to ruins, tools become unusable, books and CDs unreadable, and chemical substances loose their activity. This deterioration of systems just happens of itself, and can only be stopped by directed effort; that is: by energy flows over the boundary of a system, divided by T, that do not add up to zero over a longer period of time. (Notice that random flows of water, wind, and electricity that pass the boundaries of a system ultimately add up to zero).
How wonderful it would be if the natural deterioration and disintegration of systems would not exist or, even better, if molecules would start ordering themselves into ever larger structures, without paying the price of supplying directed energy. Unfortunately, such things only exist in dreams and in mythical stories such as the theory of (macro) evolution.
IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
