Transcript from November 15, 2002 4:00-5:00 PM Eastern
Copyright © by International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design 2002.

ISCID Moderator
Our guest speaker today is Stuart Kauffman. Dr. Kauffman is MacArthur Fellow and an external professor at the Santa Fe Institute. Twenty-five years ago, he developed the Kauffman models, which are random networks exhibiting a kind of self-organization that he terms "order for free." Dr. Kauffman is the founding general partner and chief scientific officer of The Bios Group, a company that applies the science of complexity to business management problems. He is the author of _The Origins of Order_ and _Investigations_ and the coauthor (with George Johnson) of _At Home in the Universe: The Search for the Laws of Self-Organization_.

ISCID Moderator
I am now going to hand the talk over to Dr. Kauffman. Participants can start sending in questions.

Stuart Kauffman
Hello All, fire away. Stu

MisterYetzer
Stuart, could you comment on Robert Wright's treatment of the social complexity issue in his book, Non-Zero?

Stuart Kauffman
Sorry, I've not read Wright's book, so cannot comment. Stu

caseman
Dr. Kauffman, Can you explain the basic idea about how principles of self-organization work? Thanks!

Stuart Kauffman
If one considers models of genetic regulatory networks, comprised of random Boolean networks, these can exhibit astonishing order, or can exhibit chaos. A general phase transition separates the regimes. In the ordered regime one sees self organization

Mikster
Dr. Kauffman, do you know of any computer simulations based upon your research that we can download and run on our own machines?

Stuart Kauffman
Unfortunately, no. I've published extensively in my three books, and the models are not too hard to program.

Stuart Kauffman
Actually, Jim Herriot at Bios Group, has a model of Boolean networks. Stu

tmoody
Does entropy decrease in a self-organizing system?

Stuart Kauffman
The probable answer is no. In an open thermodynamic system, for example a Boolean network, entropy is increased in the outside world even as the system itself converges in state space and yields order.

Downard
Freman Dyson commented many years ago that a vexing theoretical problem for origin of life research was the lack of a rigorous definition of metabolism. Do you think that problem still pertains, and if so, how is that question presently being addressed?

Stuart Kauffman
Interesting comment by Dyson. I don't think we have a "definition" of metabolism, although we have the well studied examples of terrestrial metabolisms. Harold Morowitz is trying to get the core of metabolism to "go" without enzymes.

micah
Hi Stu, I'm wondering what you think of the current state of self-organization theory, the progress its made since its inception, and where you see it going in the future...in particular I'm wondering if you could shed any light on what's happening in state of the art complex systems research using self-organizational concepts.

Stuart Kauffman
One is finding increasing cases in which complex systems organize their behavior in remarkable ways, from flocking bird agent based models to self organized criticality with it applications to the extinction events of the biosphere. I think we are in the early stages of integrative science and will find lots more examples.

Mikster
Is anyone, to your knowledge, currently attempting to create autocatalytic reaction sets using organic molecules to model possible abiogenesis scenarios?

Stuart Kauffman
Reza Ghidiri at Scripps is trying, although he is using small proteins and protein catalytic networks.

MisterYetzer
Stuart, is there an outer limit on the level of complexity to which biological systems move? If so, what might happen as that outer limit is approached?

Stuart Kauffman
I have thought a bit about this. You'll find it in At Home in the Universe, and Origins of Order. It has to do with supracritical chemical behavior. If a system has too great a diversity of chemicals, it should cause novel reactions with new molecules that enter, wreaking havoc.

Stuart Kauffman
PS, I suspect that a natural selection argument tunes systems to the subcritical regime, near the phase transition.

fredi
Do you see in the near future an experimental proof (not computer sim.) that can generate complex(er) forms of life - with other words can we "construct" life from scratch?

Stuart Kauffman
I hope we can construct life from scratch. In Investigations, I propose a tentative definition of an autonomous agent. Such an agent is self reproducing and does a thermodynamic work cycle. It may be that I've found a definition of life, and they should be constructable. Others are trying to make minimal cells with various techniques.

paul-jr
Is the organization you are talking about best understood as "order" - that is, highly repetitive and periodic or is it something more like "complexity" - that is, not repetitive and aperiodic-meaningful in that it matches some external pattern? Thanks

Stuart Kauffman
I don't know. I think a core idea is convergence is state space of the open thermodynamic system which yields a kind of homeostasis and order. My Boolean nets do that, for example.

Phi Carl
Hi Stuart. Would you comment on the role of the observer in complexity studies. For example, in the oft noted order seen in bird flight (individuals with no knowledge of geometry form a V), from the point of view of one of the birds not much interesting is happening. But to an outside observer, the V emerges. Do you think that there is a relation between the observer problem in quantum mechanics and the observer notion I've noted here?

Stuart Kauffman
I doubt such a relationship. The Bboids simulation shows that three simple rules gives flocking and V behavior. The entire system is classical, not quantum.

Downard
Dr. Kauffman, would you care to comment on William Dembski's Complex Specified Information arguments, and the extent to which you think they are applicable to actual biological systems?

Stuart Kauffman
Well, I debated William. I think the basic question he asks is perfectly reasonable. How would we recognize a signal from space as non-noise for example. But in the biological realm, I feel he has not made his case. There are too many alternative explanations, based on Darwinian selection, to get such complex specified information.

JayRichards
Dr. Kauffman, do you understand isolated self-organizational events as in some sense generating new information, that is, as getting information (specified information, that is, not mere Shannon Information) "for free"? Or do you understand such events as in some way "collecting" information already implicit in the surrounding environment, initial conditions, and the like.

Stuart Kauffman
Glad you asked. I confess to being deeply confused about what biologists mean when they use the term "information". It seems not to be shannon's sense, and that is the only clear definition. I actually think what we need is a theory of organization, and badly lack itl.

Phi Carl
Well to follow up on my earlier question, I certainly didn't mean to imply that I thought there was any such thing as a "quantum goose", only that it seems to me someone or something has to observe complexity. It may not be observable from within the system.

Stuart Kauffman
Hm. In the boids simulation, each boid observes some of the other boids and tries to steer an average course taken from them, but not get too close. So an observer is critical to the formation of the flocking behavior. Do you mean that in order to see the flock, you need an outside observer?

MisterYetzer
Stuart, regarding a theory of biological information, have you cosidered costly signalling theory (handicap theory)?

Stuart Kauffman
Thanks. I don't know handicap hteory, what is it?

tmoody
I'm not sure I can ask this question cogently, but how much pre-existing order must a system have to be capable of self-organization? Is there a sort of "bootstrap" threshold?

Stuart Kauffman
There are examples of bootstrap thresholds. For example, Doyne Farmer, Norm Packard and I published papers on the possible origin of self reproducing molecular systems where a critical diversity of molecular species was necessary for a phase transition to form a collectively autocatalytic set. But such thresholds may not at all be general.

MisterYetzer
Handicap theory is a theory of biological communication in which information sent by a cell, organism, etc., must be costly to the sender in order to be reliable to the recipient.

Stuart Kauffman
ps, in so far as one is studying the collective behaviorof systems with many interacting parts, it may be that a minimum number of parts is needed for the given collective behavior. For example, how many particles does it take to have "temperature"?

Stuart Kauffman
Thanks re handicap theory.

Karl
Dr. Kauffman, does your definition of information require the presence of an intelligent agent? That is, in a universe without people or higher life forms, would information exist?

Stuart Kauffman
Well, the answer in Shannon is a hidden "no", for the intelligence, as I understand it, is buried in the decoder. So the only place where information is well defined seems to sneak in an intelligent agent somewhere.

Downard
It would seem that it wouldn't make much of a difference where the "information" was in some abstract sense, but whether the increase in complexity (however measured) was occurring as a natural process. Your comment, Stuart?

Stuart Kauffman
You may be right. One of the deep puzzles is why the universe has become complex. Why has the biosphere become complex? Why has the number of ways of earning a living increased so dramatically? We have no theory about this overwhelming feature of our universe. I propose in Investigations that biospheres, on average, increase the diversity of "what can happen next", their "adjacent possible", as fast as they can without destroying the order already achieved. At least it is a possible start in this direction.

micah
Stu, if one were interested in learning more about your ideas on the web, is there a link (or two) that you would point us to?

Stuart Kauffman
The easiest ways include the BiosGroup web site, and my three books.

tmoody
Back to bootstrap threshold -- I'm thinking of cellular automata, for example, where each element must have a minimum level of complexity in order to get anything going. So my general question is what do we know about the simplest systems capable of self-organization?

Stuart Kauffman
We know little about the simplest systems. Chris Langton made a very simple cellular autonomaton that was capable of a kind of self replication - much simplier that the von Neuman machine which had 29 states per cell. Remember, we are often asking for parts with simple behavior to exhibit collective modes that are not readily predictable fromthe parts themselves. What is the minimum number? No clear answer that I know of

Karl
I'm new on this chatroom system and didn't realize that hitting return amounts to sending a message. Sorry--I agree that Shannon's definition of information is inadequate for many purposes. But I think the fact that it requires an intelligent agent may be connected to the need for an observer in the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Have you any comment on that idea?

Stuart Kauffman
No clear comments, but it is an interesting idea. If one could prove that one needed an observer for the emergence of classical behaviors from classical systems, one could try to draw a parallel to the emergence of classicity in the Copenhagen interpretation. But don't count on it. The best interpretation of classicity right now is decoherence.

Downard
It may be useful to return to the issue of Robert Wright's book, raised by the earlier questioner. For Stuart info, Wright argued that there was a trajectory to life and eventually human culture, where "zero-sumness" (where cooperation rather than pure competition gets by better) eventually proliferates. Any comment on the viability of that notion of a ratchet of progress?

Stuart Kauffman
Well, John Maynard Smith and Eors Strathmary, in their book on the major transitions in life, point to many examples where a mutualism becomes a symbiotic new entity upon which selection can act. Think of the formation of eukaryotic cells. These are ratchet events that capitalize on mutualisms.

masciarelli
Dr. Kauffman, thanks for being here. Would you comment on Wolfram's book? Has he really proposed 'a new kind of science' or is it just hype? And what do you predict its impact on 'origins of information' questions will be?

Emma Peel
Downward: You mean "NON-zero sumness?"

Downard
Yes ... my mind is faster than my fingers ... non-zero-sumness

Stuart Kauffman
YOu know, I've only read a few pages of Steve's new book. He called me to talk about it and I'll see him in Reno next week. My impression from talking to others is that many people have made thepoint that agent based models can reveal novel phenomena, but are not readily captured by equations. Wolfram may be the first to state that this is a new kind of science, but not the first to note the phenomenon. I understand his book is full of "I seriously suspect" without proofs. So caution.]

Mikster
Dr. Kauffman, do you have anything like a weblog or website where you post news as to your current research or thoughts?

Stuart Kauffman
Sorry, outside of BiosGroup's website, no.

Emma Peel
ID theorists tend to view the sequence space of life as creating isolated islands of functionality that usually can't be travelled to via small steps. Darwinians tend to think of them as connected. What kind of networks tend to be connected rather than isolated? (What general features or metrics do they need?)

Stuart Kauffman
Peter Schuster, in Vienna, U vienna, has done wonderful work on this subject. He made models of RNA sequences that folded, categorized each RNA by the kind of fold it made and showed 1) a power law distribution of the number of sequences that fold into each shape, 2) that thecommon shapes each form a percolating connected web across sequence space all of whose members are neutral mutants of one another such that one can traverse the entire space stepping only on the same shape. Further he and his colleagues showed that all the common shapes formed such webs, and came very near one another.

tmoody
This is perhaps a stretch, but do you suppose self-organization theory could shed any light on a phenomenon such as the origin of language?

Stuart Kauffman
Liane Gabora is trying to achieve just that step with the idea of percolating webs of associations that gel and give rise to complex language.

Mikster
For those interested in research on complexity and autocatalytic set theory, are there any particular papers / books/ websites that you'd recommend for those who wish to learn more?

Stuart Kauffman
In addition to my three books, there are all the papers of the Santa Fe Institute, plus the work of Doron Lancet at the Weitzman Institute in Israel on autocatalytic sets, plus possible new work by Reza Ghadiri at Scripps.

Downard
Darwinian adaptive spaces aren't quite like a fixed landscape, to be traversed like climbing a mountain ... the process of natural development, adaptation, exaptation, competition, symbiosis, etc and so on generates a shifting landscape. In that sense some of Dawkins' analogies have got readers a slightly muddied impression of what is going on. Would you agree, Stuart?

Stuart Kauffman
With respect to Dawkins, it is fair to say that coevolution or abiotic alterations in the environment causes fitness landscapes to alter. But a deeper question is whether organisms, their mutational and recombinational search mechanisms, and "niches" coevolve together such that only those niches well searched by the search mechanisms flourish to form winning ways of making a living. The biosphere self constructs allthree things. Do you all know the "no free lunch" theorem?

masciarelli
Thanks for the response re: Wolfram. You've noted in this discussion that natural selection 'tunes' existing systems and that there is indeed a initial bootstrapping problem to get there. If I understand you correctly, this seems to corroborate the key issue that design theorists are raising. For a young "tired of Darwinian dogmatism/ID seems pretty cool" guy like myself, do you think that ID is not only a 'perfectly reasonable' question, but maybe even one that warrants serious intellictual attention, resources [not nec. $$], and active investigation? Specifically , is there a reason not to give design some time? [please pardon any typos ;-0]

Stuart Kauffman
I think the design question is legitimate. I just worry about the methodologies, and hidden reference to a creator.

fredi
Do you think that simulation on "traditional" computers hinders us from getting results that "living cell" computing achieves via massive paralel computing?

Stuart Kauffman
Re living cells, I don't know. I do think that cells are doing something that computers are not doing, namely doing work constructing constraints on the release of energy which very constraints on the release of energy creates work. So constraints are needed for work and work needed for constraints, and that's both true, as best I can tell, and not in the physics books. That's why we need a theory of organization. But that does not yet answer your question about whether cells can carry out parallel computation that we canot on traditional computers. One piece, of course, is that cells build spatially heterogeneous structures missing in traditional computers.

Phi Carl
What briefly is the notion of "decoherence" in classical physics. Or can you give a reference to the concept.

Stuart Kauffman
Decoherence has to do with the loss of phase information in a propagating wave equation due to interaction with the complex environment. Once the loss has happened, the information cannot be restored, hence quantum interference cannot be observed.

Chris
Complexity theory, being a theoretical language, has a syntax. For complexity theory to apply, this syntax (or distributed set of structural and dynamical rules) must be present and active. Any idea where this syntax is located? For example, do you envision something like the array of a cellular automaton, with PDP support in the "spatiotemporal background"? If so, then where did this array and/or background come from?

Stuart Kauffman
Don't know what the syntax is. Your where did this array come from is part of the former question about why the universe mannages to become complex. We just don't have a theory. In Investigations, I pose the question how Maxwell's demon, in a non equilibrium setting, knows what measurements to make to find a source of free energy with which to do work. He doesn't as far as I can tell. But in the biosphere, if an organsim finds a new source of free energy which is useful, natural selection will graft it into the ongoing biosphere;s evolution.

Chris
Decoherence is a concept associated with the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Do you subscribe to this interpretation?

Stuart Kauffman
No, I don't like the many worlds interpretation.

rintinscrabbleweed
would you agree that "design" can encompass the vastly complex, natural interactions of molecular and chemical interaction?

Stuart Kauffman
I doubt it, although who really knows. I search for laws of self organization, like the emergence of collectively autocatalytic sets and metabolisms as phase transitions in critically complex systems, as an alternative. But it is still just theory.

micah
Stu are you planning a new book by any chance?

Stuart Kauffman
roughly thinking of a book in economics challanging competitive general equilibrium, which assumes, falsely I think, that we can prestate all possible dated contingent goods at the outset.

caseman
Could a self-organizing systems ever self-de-organize?

Stuart Kauffman
Sure, orgtanisms die. We're near the end. I'd like to thank all of you for provocative and in many cases, novel questions. Hope this has been useful.

ISCID Moderator
Well, its about time to wrap things up. ISCID would like to thank Stuart Kauffman for the thought provoking and stimulating discussion. If you would like to continue chatting after the event, feel free to move over into the General Discussion room.

Copyright © by International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design 2002.